Brian M. Williams - 11:12am Oct 24, 2002 PST (#68 of 73) 

I posted this to the ASLML, but Chas requested that it be posted here,
so here it is: 

Re: Consumer thoughts on OTO 

Ok, this is probably going to sound harsher than it should be because I
am very happy that OTO is out and generally pleased with the results,
but here are my comments, bad first (I want to end on a positive note): 

From the general ASL’er perspective I think that the use of white
space/font size should be re-evaluated. For example, the size of the
font for the SSR page and amount of white space actually encourages me
not to read it. Generally the rules are of such large font that I would
guess you could have saved us a page by simply lowering the font. I know
we are getting older, but the font/spacing is simply too large/wide.
Even MMP’s rulebook did not go that far. The tables in the text are the
best example of this. A table in too large a font (11pt?) really looks
cumbersome and adds more paper to my package (and thus more $). Another
example is pages 26-28. All of that could have fit on one page by
dropping out a picture (that looks out of place) and making the two unit
symbols smaller. With a consumer cost of what I am guessing $1 per
physical page, I just paid $1 for a bunch of white space. 

Also, while I liked the historical summery, the OB information was
really overdone. If someone were really interested in the battle, the
OBs are readily available now in English. While you might expect that
level of detail in game that covers the whole battle, ASL’ers (mostly,
IMO), only want the units directly associated with the scenario they are
playing. Am I complaining about extras? You bet I am, when the extras
probably added $5 to my cost. 

The map, as you state should have been in two sections; however, I have
a razor and fell no compunction about slicing it in half (as I did to
the RB sections to make quarters). A slight complaint about the map is
that the shellhole/orchard hexes should have been depicted differently
since the orchards are out of season (e.g. make the symbols brown
instead of green). As is, there are some orchards in season and some
not. It is easily recognizable, but still . . . the devil is in the
details. Also (and CH does this as well) I automatically cut the boarder
off of any maps I buy. That red ink costs money and space, although I
would guess that you had to choose a particular sized piece of paper
based on what the printer could provide. 

Another small but annoying detail is the fact that scenarios that span
two cards are not on the back and front of one card. I know, it is
petty, but if you are taking up two sides to a scenario card, why not
take up only one scenario card. I guess it allows you to set up the
counters on the card, but unorganized me am always searching through the
rest of my cards to find the right “back”. 

Ok, here’s the good stuff: 

I love late war german vs soviet scenarios. Ton(ne)s of forts against
ton(ne)s of firepower make me more excited than, well, I was going to
say a moderately ugly woman, but I will have to be truthfull and say a
really ugly woman (I have pretty low standards). Take AOO and shove it;
give me a T-34/85 going against a PzIVJ any day, or an IS2 against a
Tiger. 

The scenarios look interesting, are on new terrain, and focus on a
battle that was more successful than the Normandy campaign. The CG is
manageable. The counters are superb (I would have liked more lend lease
vehicles though, valentine II’s, churchills, etc.) as is the map. The
take on history is distinctive (one reason I believe this hobby needs
many producers is that each has a particular style and view of history;
and even if you don’t agree with it, it is worth looking at). 

Hey look Ma, no SS. I am guilty of designing SS scenarios, and am glad
that someone is doing something like this (late war soviet stuff) with
only one (IIRC) SS scenario in it, and 447 SS at that. 

Quality overall looks very good. I encourage everyone who likes east
front actions to buy, buy, buy this mod. . . er, historical, something
or o 


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Klaus Fischer - 11:55am Oct 24, 2002 PST (#69 of 73) 
Art Director & Webmaster Heat of Battle
Brian, 

thanks for speaking so openly :-) 

Well, let me adress 2 points you mentioned and that I'm responsible for:
Pages 26-28 were "filled" with the Photos/unit crests, so you can have
the German and Russian Vehicle notes separately by nation in you Chapter
H (if you fancy that). So you can sort the German page to the Germans
and the Russian pages with your other Russian Chapter H notes. 

For printing the Scenario "backs" this is also a little more on the
practical side. When setting up the counters on one half you can still
look at the SSRs and setup restrictions on the other sheet, instead of
flipping (and thus haning to take the counters off again). As some
playtesters complaint about this I added the "See page OtO# for SSR and
Setup Restriction" note, to ease looking for the right page. 

I hope this helps you understand this issue a little better. But, again
thanks for the open words as they help us improve for the next product.
Ciao 

Klaus Art Director & Webmaster Heat of Battle 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bradjohnson - 01:08pm Oct 24, 2002 PST (#70 of 73) 

Following Brian's method of starting with the bad. My only major
complaint would be that the color of the Russian counters seem to lean
toward 'Japanese Yellow' instead of the standard 'Russian Brown'.
Although it is nothing that a scanner, PSP, and label paper cannot
correct. Is this a slip up on color coordination or just HOB's color
standard? 

My second request is to recommend that HOB include some thin cardstock
on each side of the package (as someone suggested in a previous post) to
prevent the bending/crimping of any corners such as the one that my
package arrived with. 

Last beef . . . I didn't really care for the outer wrapping. It really
isn't a folder to hold that contents, nor is it a one page cover that
can easily be sorted. Just seems like a strange way to package it. 

On to the better part of the post. 

Following the track near and dear to Brian's heart, Late War East Front
abso-freakin-lutely rocks! OtO covers an action that is long overdue.
The map and all of the scenarios (especially the large ones) are great
and I cannot wait to send my hordes of Red Comrades and tanks across the
plains of Russia. The Sturmovik and lend-lease counters really fill a
void that should have been taken care of a long time ago. (Actually, the
entire OtO pack does this)! HOB also needs to be praised for the the
excellent customer service in provide the errata in a timely fashion. 

Finally, I'd like to say that the previews that HOB provided are
top-notch . . . the slideshow, the map, and the scenarios previews are
all something that convinced me to get this product. Keep up the
excellent work. Brad 


Klaus Fischer - 02:48pm Oct 24, 2002 PST (#71 of 73) 
Art Director & Webmaster Heat of Battle
Brad, 

ahh, the counter color issue again :-) Comparing my Russian counters
from BV1, RB1, BV2 and now OtO, I suggest we're inbetween. The BV1
Russians are yellow-brown, the RB1 are real pale-brown and the BV2
Russians now are pretty dark (at least in my counterset). So, if even
the original publisher has such a hard time to hit the right color (you
know the other examples), how are we to hit the right one? ;-) 

We tried our best to get the right color, but you will never get the
excact same color on two different print runs - even CTP (Computer to
Plate). So I hope they don't stick out that much. 

The Wrapper; originally we planned for just a folder (ala SS-3) but with
all the contents in the package we had to go with the solution we
finally chose. Agreed the Cardstock could be thicker, like the AP!s but
that would've increased the cost - and THAT is something we definately
wanted to avoid. 

I think with this we found a solution that gives you the biggest bang
for the lowest buck. 

So, again, thanks for speaking, and we will take all of your comments
into consideration for our next projects - and there are plenty to come
:-) Ciao 

Klaus 

Art Director & Webmaster Heat of Battle 


Mike Licari - 09:27pm Oct 24, 2002 PST (#72 of 73) 

Hi all, 

Those who read the ASLML will recognize this, but I repost here for
those not on the list. This was written on Oct 11, and some of the
issues I raise have since been addressed (via personal contact with
HOB...excellent customer service!). Also, I recently played OtO 3 and
OtO 4 so I will post AARs in the next few days. 

The overall package is impressive. Think "historical study on steroids"
and you've got a good idea. 

Map: 

The map is very nice. I like the 1" hexes and the artwork is pleasant
(computer generated but it doesn't seem as "stiff" as other maps
generated in the same way). The artwork for the various terrain
depictions is very close to "standard" with the exception being the
grain, which is still fine. The only ambiguity is hex R30, with the
little bit of woods next to one side of the road; not exactly a rules
problem, but does cause a player to have to pause and think how that hex
should be played. The map is printed on decently-heavy paper and is
surrounded by schedules and boxes to help players keep track of VP, etc.

Counters: 

One counter sheet is included, primarily of new Russian vehicle types
and Sturmovik aircraft. The large number of Sturmovik counters (around
40!) is due to the fact that there are quite a few versions represented,
with each version having 4 possible states: armed with rockets and
bombs, rockets only, bombs only, and no payload. So each type has to
have 4 representations, which means a lot of counters are needed.
Several different models of mine-clearing and flame-throwing tanks are
represented, along with several different lend-lease vehicles in Russian
colors (British and US tanks, different US trucks, and the M17 AA
halftrack). This is extra nice since these can be used in other
scenarios. German counters are limited to four OP tanks, three JU-87G
Stukas (the variety with the 37mm cannons), and several machinegun
armored cupolas. Finally, there are a few armor leaders, with
information for mine-clearing tanks on their backs. The counters are of
excellent quality and standard thickness; I punched them (well, cut them
out) with no problems. They're very near to standard in how information
is displayed, which means they're actually recognizable and useful. I
don't like the holographic "HOB" background on them, but can live with
it, and I recognize that it's probably a way to distinguish the counters
enough to avoid copyright issues; there's absolutely no way, despite the
standard "official" format, that anyone could mistakenly believe that
these counters come from MMP. 

Rules Chapter: 

This includes rules on a few terrain issues for the map (e.g. Shellhole
Orchards), the CG rules, Sturmovik and JU-87G rules, vehicle notes for
the new AFVs (including rules on using the mine clearing tanks), two
SASL missions (one of which is set on the OtO map), and a historical
analysis of Operation Bagration, which usefully includes an extensive
Order of Battle for the Russians and the Germans. There is also a
chapter divider with a copyable map for perimeter marking on one side
and rules summaries on the other. The CG is 4 scenarios long, so it
seems playable, and there is a good variety of purchase options for both
sides. The CG rules themselves are a vast improvement over HOB's
previous method. Unlike previous CG rules from HOB (e.g. BRV or FC),
these stand alone. Previously, players had to use the KGP or RB CG rules
simultaneously with HOB's CG rules. This is not the case with OtO, which
is for me a very big improvement. 

Scenarios: 

There are 22 (!) scenarios, divided into two parts. Half of them are
played on the OtO map (designated OtO scenarios), and half of them are
played on geomorphic boards, and represent other Operation Bagration
battles (designated OB scenarios). Some of the scenarios in each part
are quite small (e.g. 5-6 turns, maybe a single AFV, small playing
area), designed to be those we play on weeknights or via PBEM. Others
are much more meaty and involve several geomorphic boards or large
portions of the huge OtO map. These look very exciting, but no doubt
will not get played as often as the smaller ones. The scenario cards are
on cardstock, are in color, and use HOB's now-standard style of layout,
which I think is user-friendly. The back of two cards have OtO special
rules on them; two copies is nice, so that both players can reference
them at the same time. 

Packaging: 

From the HOB website, it appeared as if OtO would ship in a box. It does
not. Instead, it is shipped in a fold-out player aid, like the two
Action Packs. This turned out to be fine, as the contents are
sufficiently stiff to prevent folding and bending. Denting of corners,
however, is possible (one corner on my copy was very mildly bent). No
unique information is contained on the fold-out, so if it is severely
damaged and the contents are fine, everything is still playable.
However, it would be nice to know up-front what HOB's policy is on
material that is damaged in the mail. 

Critiques: 

Overall, I am very impressed and pleased. I haven't felt this excited
opening up a new ASL product in a long time. That doesn't mean I haven't
noticed problems or areas that could be improved. Some are pretty
technical in nature, others are more general. 

1. One of my M4A2 Sherman counters is misprinted; the "box" for the side
armor is off-set and doesn't enclose the armor factor. 

2. Proof-reading and copy-editing seem to be improved from previous HOB
HASL efforts (typos and grammatical errors were rampant in BRV, FC, and
KotH), but there still are problems: the Russian RG purchase table was
misprinted (there are corrected sheets to be mailed to OtO owners) and
the mine-clearing rules section contains a sentence that is so mangled
(missing words and poor structure) that I had to read it over and over
to decipher what it meant. 

3. Several German armor leaders are printed in Russian colors; this is
really not a big deal, although I'm sure the designers and playtesters
represented on those counters are disappointed. 

4. The manner in which OtO is packaged and shipped probably could be
improved. The fold-out is pretty thin, so it only marginally protects
the contents. Further, since one edge is open, the contents are not
protected on that edge. Now, I'm not a proponent of boxes, but I think
there's room for improvement here. For example, CH! ships HASL material
in heavy folders which are shrink-wrapped. This completely encloses the
contents and provides extra space surrounding the contents so that if an
edge or a corner is dented just the folder is damaged. I understand that
the sheer volume of material in OtO makes this difficult, but there are
large folders that can hold quite a bit. 

5. Some of the OtO special rules need to be in the rules chapters; e.g.
the rule that designates the railroad as an embankment RR should be with
the rest of the terrain rules. 

6. Maybe I missed it, but there isn't any information about what is
required to play all of the contents in OtO. There is a wide range of
geomorphic boards and rules used, so there should be an indication of
what modules/components are needed. 

Anyway, I am very pleased with OtO so far. The whole thing is very
professionally done and is as good or better than any HASL or HS that
MMP has produced. I am about to play some of the material tonight, so I
will be able to comment more at a later time. The final cost, $59 with
shipping, seems justified. By that I mean that I feel like I got $60
worth of ASL stuff. A comparison in that price range is BRT or ABTF,
both of which cost about $60 after shipping for U.S. customers. OtO is
competitive with both of these in terms of content; BRT and ABTF have
more (and larger) CGs, but OtO has many more scenarios. OW is about $50
after shipping, which is less, but also contains less. All in all, OtO
seems competitively priced. The only thing I would worry about is if my
$60 worth of material arrived damaged due to the inadequate packaging.
So far it seems that HOB has been very good at addressing customer
support issues (i.e. promptly addressing the misprinted Russian RG table
by mailing replacement pages), so perhaps they can adequately deal with
any complaints regarding shipping. In the final analysis, HOB should be
happy that my main critique is on packaging, rather than contents!
Well-done, three cheers, and I look forward to HOB's next effort. 

Mike