From: Chris.Mcardle@sawasdi.apana.org.au (Chris Mcardle) Description: Pheonix command Review Hi all, I have a combat system called Pheonix command. It is really a minatures system, but I have used it to replace the combat system in Ambush, and that is fun. It can replace the system in any RPG for more realistic action. I wrote a review of it to somone, and have added to it since; so I thought i'd post it to this area. By the way if there is any players of it out there who want to chat about the game drop me a line. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, it says on the box its the most realistic combat system yet invented. I doubt that. But it is good. My main complaint is that you dont get much rules for your dollar. They have basic and advanced rules in the first book. Which is more a set of combat rules than rpg rules. They cover shhoting rifles and lobbing / firing grenades. It is the small arms combat system and covers small arms ok. The game scale is 2 seconds a Phase, which is broken up into .5 second impulses and 2 yards a hex or inch. Each character has a number of CA or combat actions with which to act. and different actions take different amounts of CA to do. for instance run 1 hex is 1 action, to open a door is 3. go from standing to prone 2 etc. an average person has from 4 - 6 CA per 2 second. CA are also used for aiming. There are a whole slab of modifiers to use when aiming; too numerous to list here, but they cover just about any situation you may need. anyway bullets do high or low penetration. ( PEN ) if the pen is less than the armour ( PF ) then the bullet doesnt penatrate. if it's higher but not double it does low PEN, and if its double high PEN. High pen does all the killing. bullets also have a damage class ( DC ) Which is basically how big a hole they tear through flesh. The bigger the DC the deader you become. Also if the PEN is low the bullet will always only do DC 1. and the pen usually pretty low as well. I've had a situation were a face plate of 4 PF has saved a character from having his brains blown out by a .45 to just his jaw blown off. in the basic book there are 39 different hit locations for a human, from head glance to liver spine, heart lung, etc. All the frag, shotgun and auto fire rules use geometry to calculate how many bits hit a target. basically of a 5 round burst is fired into a 2 yard hex then there will be about 1 bullet every 40 cm. so as a persons chest is around 30 - 40 cm wide then there is a % chance of being hit by one bullet. if the 5 rounds were fired into a .5 yard area then there would be an automatic hit or 2. This may change with range firing stance etc. Grenade have a base concussion at different ranges that is taken as straight damage. Thats basically the first book, PHEW! then there is advanced rules, and PC expansion. in advanced there are rules for blunt trauma, balistic accuracy, 3 round burst, blind fire, smoke, weapon jams, recoil, advanced spotting, basic rpg skills, Time of flight, The blunt trauma rules mean even if a slug doesn't penetrate its blunt energy may still hurt a lot. in the expansion there are rules for reaction time and target id time, prolonged auto fire, tracking auto fire, lots more grenade stuff, aiming at specific body locations, and a whole lot of stuff for using animals as targets. I was pretty pissed off as I wanted the animals for hand to hand stuff, but it was all done for shooting at them. :( But in their defense it was an expansion for the small arms system. not hand to hand. Theese are about 30 pages each. Then there is the damage tables and special weapons supp. The damage tables is basicaly the same as in the basic system but greatly expanded to a finner resolution, and covers hits from the front, rear, and side. instead of 5 basic penatration levels for each hit location, there are about 20, in thenths resolution for some, This give shotgun pellets and pissy weapons like the .22 and ,.25's a chance of doing some hurt. The special wepons supp. is a lot of obscure weapons and there uses, like. White phos, flame throwers, rifle grenades, claymores, miniguns, flash stun and smoke grenades. Tear gas, plastic bullets thrown rocks, bottles, bricks. silencers, bows, strangulation and garrots. Also there are several Weapons suups that are basically a bunch of stats on different periods guns, ie wild west and ww2. And there are afew scenario books out now. a vietnam one and one set in the troubled russian empire. Are you still awake? :) well theres more. :) The hand to hand system uses a different scale if 2 feet per hex. but a turn is sstill 2 seconds long. it has alot of different weapons and armours. and works much the same as PC. ie you spend CA on different actions. rules include weapons armour etc, parrying, glancing, rams, beaked axes, chainsaws, lodged weapons, broken weapons, fumbles, cutting through parries, parrying for others, the list goes on. its a pretty good system. I really like this system but they haven't supported it with any advanced rules and it doesn't seem likely that they will. Weapons do either cutting, slashing or bashing damage, dependant on type and use and strokes can either be short normal or long. dice are rolled for damage and various multpliers are used to modify this, the hit location is rolled and then the ID (impact damage) is compared to the armour on that location, this is all done on a xchart. Then the damage is read. A shield seems mandatory in this game as you can parry with the shield while striking with a weapon, unless your character is a Conan style one they are very necessary. And most recently, they have brought out a mechanized system. This system has a 8 second turn that is broken into 2 second phases. And hexes are 20 yard across. it has modern tanks in great detail. there are ww2 supps out for this now as well, one for heavy tanks and one for mediums. They cover American, German , And Russian vehicles. there is an artillery system that is done to the PC scale of 2 yard hexes, and a anti tank gun book that lists lots of ww2 AT guns. The vehicle hit chart is about as detailed as the human hit chart with about 50 different locations to hit from, turret cupola,thats usually about a 2% to hit to And that's the Leading Edge Phoenix Command system. A money grabbing exercise if ever I saw one. My main gripe is that the rules don't cover a lot of things that you would think are important, and their slow release rate, makes me think I'll be a wrinkly old man before I get a complete system. :( Another thing that gets me is they dont have rules for throwing things like spears in the hand to hand system. the only rules for throwing are in the special weapons supp. and thats just bricks. and bows aren't covered very well either. But my gripes aside, the system does feel realistic and when using an umpire and the excellent spotting rules, and my own modified sound spotting rules there is a definate tension in the air as players skulk around in fear of the unknown. waiting for the inevitble shot to ring out, that tolls their demise. --- | Fidonet: Chris Mcardle 3:800/846 | Internet: Chris.Mcardle@sawasdi.apana.org.au | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. | Sawasdi BBS Hampstead Garden SA Australia +61-8-261-7802 From: scott@graft.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Silvey) Date: 30-MAY-1994 09:30:48 Description: Re: Pheonix command Review % Well, it says on the box its the most realistic combat system yet invented. % I doubt that. But it is good. It's the most realistic and detailed system I've ever seen. The wound system is brilliantly original (deadly), and the time slicing, action points, and aiming system are also very bright points. It makes for combat that is highly realistic and forces players to emulate real life action much more closely than with other simplified systems. There are definitely flaws when compared with reality but compared to any other system I know of, Phoenix Command is great. I'm not the biggest gamer though, so it's possible there are other good systems that I'm just not aware of. % My main complaint is that you dont get much % rules for your dollar. This is the biggest serious flaw... they really milk you for what it's worth. No wonder more people haven't gotten into the system! They should just package everything into several big volumes (say small arms/hand to hand, mechanized combat, artillery/AT guns, etc). They need some serious marketing help... too bad. But you could get by with just the main book, advanced rules, and hand to hand and still have loads of fun. The scenario books are pretty cool: They really give some great insights into what infantry action was like in Viet Nam (just give me a couple Claymores!). Also you actually learn some cool military history from the Russion Roulette one. The Expansion and Special Weapons books are pretty neat too. I tried out a "Jurassic Park" scenario where they actually use the guns (Franchi Spas combat shotguns, etc). The big dinos were slaughtered when the people had big game rifles, but the Velociraptors turned out to be very dangerous because of the size, speed, and numbers. This hokey little example just gives an idea how general the system is while still being very realistic. My criticisms are: 1) I question how accurate the ballistics are for a lot of the weapons, but those kinds of things are difficult to get perfect. They have still done a remarkable job and in most of the cases their numbers flesh out the kinds of things I've heard about the weapons in question from other sources. 2) The damage system is probably a bit too deadly. Reading first-hand accounts from Viet Nam, I am amazed at how durable the human body is. Some of those guys went on fighting with big holes in them ... one guy I remember fighting/resting/retreating for several hours with a 7.62 hole right through his stomach area! The Phoenix Command system still allows for this sort of thing, but it's less probable than what I can see from combat accounts. Still the system is FAR more realistic than anything I've ever seen and it is satisfactorily grisly. 3) Action points only allow one thing at a time to be done. In reality, you can do many things simultaneously ... cocking a gun while running and searching side-to-side, for example. But in the game, all of these things cost action points which you can only spend on one thing at a time. This is a simple problem to fix though. 4) Encumberance is too harsh in the game. I think the system allows too much disparity in the combat abilities of heavilly loaded troops vs unencumbered troops. If you tried to pit a squad of American troops in full combat gear against guys just carrying guns in the game, the Americans would have serious trouble even defending themselves; But in real life I don't think the difference in combat ability due to encumberance would be so great. All of these things are really minor though and I think the system's good points far out-weigh these slight problems. Plus, these are just my opinions, I don't really have hard data to throw at the game designers. Oh, one other small thing that I can think of offhand... they need a rule for grenade flight time. For grenades with contact fuses, this is very significant. % But my gripes aside, The system does feel realistic and when using an % umpire and the exelent spotting rules, and my own modified sound % spotting rules there is a definate tension in the air as players % skulk around in fear of the unknown. waiting for the inevitble shot % to ring out, that tolls their demise. This I'd love to try. Boy, the players wouldn't be blindly throwing their bodies around in suicidal and foolhardy defiance the way they do in a lot of other systems! If you are interested in what learning a lot about what small-arms combat is like, you should check this system out. I'd have to call it more of a simulation than a game. The rules are a bit dense but once you've played a few games, things speed up quite a bit. And then there's Chris's good point about using it to supplement other games ... Phoenix Command is excellent for this sort of thing. Plus, there's a great database of small arms and special weapons. Scott From: legames@aol.com (LEGames) Date: 30-MAY-1994 22:49:01 Description: Re: Pheonix command Review In article , Chris.Mcardle@sawasdi.apana.org.au (Chris Mcardle) writes: > and that's the Leading Edge Phoenix Command system. A money grabbing > exercise if ever I saw one. My main gripe is that the rules dont > cover a lot of things that You would think are important, and their > slow release rate, makes me think I'll be a wrinkly old man before I > get a complete system. :( If that is really what you think then you know VERY little about the sales of PCCS. It just ISN'T a big seller and regardless of how the stuff might be packaged or marketed there is no way it can be considered a "money-grabbing excercise." As for it not covering everything that YOU may consider important... well, you can't please everyone. You should know though that PC is more than just a cool game, it is a labor of love created by the designers who do truely believe that this is the most detailed combat system ever created (and I believe them, just name one better). > Another thing that gets me is they dont have rules for throwing > things like spears in the hand to hand system. the only rules for > throwing are in the special weapons supp. and thats just bricks. and > bows arn't covered very well either. With this I would agree with you. But then, there hasn't been that much call for it either. The SACS is much more popular than the HTH system and as one person put it "Gun-Fu beats Kung-Fu every time!" - Jay @ Leading Edge Games From: nadir@netcom.com (Nadir A. El Farra) Date: 31-MAY-1994 04:09:51 Description: Re: Pheonix command Review Scott Silvey (scott@graft.Berkeley.EDU) wrote: : % Well, it says on the box its the most realistic combat system yet : % invented. I doubt that. But it is good. [snip] trying playing it double-blind! talk about sweaty palms!!! Should I peek around that corner? Can he hit me from that far away? Should I use my last grenade NOW, or wait a while? LOADS of fun!! : need some serious marketing help... too bad. Then offer it! Don't be shy! : The Expansion and Special Weapons books are pretty neat too. I tried : out a "Jurassic Park" scenario where they actually use the guns : (Franchi Spas combat shotguns, etc). The big dinos were slautered : when the people had big game rifles, but the Velociraptors turned out : to be very dangerous because of the size, speed, and numbers. This : hokey little example just gives an idea how general the system is : while still being very realistic. Try hunter with Nylon 66 vs. Bear - oh, joy! : My criticisms are: : 1) I question how accurate the ballistics are for a lot of the weapons, but : those kinds of things are difficult to get perfect. They have still done : a remarkable job and in most of the cases their numbers flesh out the : kinds of things I've heard about the weapons in question from other : sources. Can't help you there, I'm no scientist. Barry Nakazono, the designer, IS a scientist (works at NASA's JPL). Not to flame the other game designers, but I'll believe PC stat's LOOOONG before those from GURPs or Traveller!! ;) : 2) The damage system is probably a bit too deadly. Reading first-hand : accounts from Viet Nam, I am amazed at how durable the human body is. : Some of those guys went on fighting with big holes in them ... one guy I : remember fighting/resting/retreating for several hours with a 7.62 hole : right trough his stomache area! The Phoenix Command system still allows : for this sort of thing, but it's less probable than what I can see from : combat accounts. Still the system is FAR more realistic than anything : I've ever seen and it is satisfactorily grisly. I, unfortuneately have a friend was shot recently in a hold-up of his gun store. He took one round in the abdomen and went down (9mm). Any of you want to trade places to see how it feels? Didn't think so! ;) Anyway, in the 4th Edition Optional rules, it gives several possible results other than simple KO, most of which allow you to at least run away. You cannot perform OFFENSIVE actions until your Incapacitation time is over, but DEFENSIVE actions like the one's you describe would be allowed as I understand the rules. : 3) Action points only allow one thing at a time to be done. : In reality, you can do many things simultaneously ... cocking a gun while : running and searching side-to-side, for example. But in the game, all of : these things cost action points which you can only spend on one thing at : a time. This is a simple problem to fix though. See Advanced Rules Section 9 (p. 12). "Free Actions". Basically, as long as they are SIMPLE, you can combine some actions - like breaking fireing stance as you move, or moving and firing Snap shots (1 AC max). Detailed Operations (reloading, etc.) still require seperate expenditures, but you should adjust as you see fit - MAKE the game imitate reality - leave comic books and Stallone movies out of it! ;) : 4) Encumberance is too harsh in the game. I think the system allows too much : disparity in the combat abilities of heavilly loaded troops vs unencumbered : troops. If you tried to pit a squad of American troops in full combat gear : against guys just carrying guns in the game, the Americans would have : serious trouble even defending themselves; But in real life I don't think : the difference in combat ability due to encumberance would be so great. I suggest you boost strength & agility for cops/soldiers since the game assumes an AVERAGE person, not one whose physique (sp?) has been enhanced via training. It'll help a little. [snip] : % But my gripes aside, The system does feel realistic and when using an umpire : % and the exelent spotting rules, and my own modified sound spotting rules : % there is a definate tension in the air as players skulk around in fear of the : % unknown. waiting for the inevitble shot to ring out, that tolls their demise. : This I'd love to try. Boy, the players wouldn't be blindly throwing : their bodies around in suicidal and foolhardy defiance the way they do : in a lot of other systems! Even a small version of this is fun - the SWAT entry team vs. the crazed (i.e. VERY high Will) gun man, plays quick and everyone has a blast (esp with the toys from Special Weapons!) :) \: there's Chris's good point about using it to supplement other games : ... Phoenix Command is excellent for this sort of thing. Plus, : there's a great database of small arms and special weapons. One of the English gaming magazines proposed Twilight Phoenix/Command 2000 (i.e. Twilight 2000 with PC - gotta be a LOT more careful with your characters though!!). Have fun and remember to DUCK!!!! -Nadir -- nadir@netcom.com = Nadir A. El Farra in Los Angeles