From: Rusty Witek Subject: Longest Day (AH) (long) Our gaming group has been playing this for the past few months, so I thought I'd share a few thoughts. We played most of the Cobra scenario and ran through the Normandy landings twice before tackling a campaign game. We're having lots of fun with it; it's June 11 and the Allies are well ashore, but the German reinforcements are arriving apace. The Good: --I like the system a lot. The numerous subsystems (naval and air bombardment, supply, railroad movement and interdiction, etc.) give you lots of meaningful decisions to make each turn without any of them being particularly complicated in themselves. As the American commander I find myself agonizing over whether we can afford to take the heavy bombers off strategic interdiction in order to set up a carpet bombing attack to make the link between Omaha and Sword. Those kinds of choices seem right, and I'm enjoying making them. --The relatively simple combat system is elegantly put together. It's bloody, with some nice nuances like combined arms and defensive fire (a crucial tool even for the attcker). Lots of stuff happening each turn, and both sides get to attack and defend. --The interaction of combat and logistics seems especially well done (granted, I haven't played that many games at this scale--most of my gaming has been tactical/grand tactical). I'm more worried about my port capacity than I am about the enemy dispositions, but there's little bookkeeping, and the supply decisions are by no means dull. The Bad: --Opening play seems stereotyped and dicey, an impression borne out by the discussions in The General analyses. Poor rolling by the Allies in suppressing the coastal guns and/or lots of 6s by the Germans against the landing boxes, and the Allies are done for (the reverse is not quite true--our landings established all but one beachhead, and the Germans have still recovered nicely). I can see lots of games where the Allies would bag it after the first turn and start over because of the dice. --As a subset of the above, the rules by which HQs are destroyed by coastal guns means that a lucky roll can throw off the whole game. Poor rolls for either the British or US airborne also can be early game-breakers. I lost the 82nd HQ to a fluke attack, and the 90th Inf. Div. and VII (?) Corps HQs to coastal fire, and now Utah is crippled for a month or more. A General article actually suggests some variant rules to minimize this effect, but I'm not going to ask our group to use them in the middle of the game. --I hate the extensive designer's notes (although the playtesters' tctical hints are helpful). The whole package is full of "what a good boy am I" preening about the accuracy of the research, the elegance of the design, and the failings of previous designers and researchers. It doesn't affect play of the game, of course, but I hate the patronizing tone and the thinly veiled admiration for the Germans and condecension toward the Allies that permeates the discourse. The Ugly: --The map seems especially old-fashioned by contemporary standards, closer to Tactics II than even the original AH Bulge, and the lack of hex designations is annoying at times. --The counters use "historical" German-style unit symbols and are crammed with irrelevant information in several sizes of type. My aging eyes couldn't read half the stuff, and the symbols were confusing; I literally could never tell what I was looking at. Our resident computer whiz created a whole new set of counters using Nato-style symbols and including only the information needed to play the game. After that my enjoyment of the game shot up tremendously. All that said, the glowing recommendations that this game got when I asked about it earlier on the list certainly seem to be justified. Rusty From: Stan Grossman Subject: Re: Longest Day (AH) (long) Forewarning: The Longest Day ranks as one of my all-time favorite games. On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Rusty Witek wrote: > The Good: > --I like the system a lot. The numerous subsystems (naval and air > bombardment, supply, railroad movement and interdiction, etc.) give you > lots of meaningful decisions to make each turn without any of them being > particularly complicated in themselves. Agreed. And as a "monster" game, it is a fairly friendly one. None of the rules are overly involved, and you end up using most of them so many times in the course of the game, they quickly become second nature. Each of the subsystems are like mini-games themselves. My only qualm was the German strategic movemment chart was a bit small for all the units that parade thru, so I just build a larger one on poster board. Also, having lots of tiny dice to check for movement from one area to the next helps. > As the American commander I find > myself agonizing over whether we can afford to take the heavy bombers off > strategic interdiction in order to set up a carpet bombing attack.... It certainly poses lots of trade off with air. I usually do my best to keep the heavies interdicting the Germans in the early stages of the game, if I'm building up ok. I'd rather keep them off the board as long as possible, and stretch their lines. But it is quite a balancing act, esp if you have a rough landing. > --The relatively simple combat system is elegantly put together. It's > bloody, with some nice nuances like combined arms and defensive fire (a > crucial tool even for the attcker). Lots of stuff happening each turn, > and both sides get to attack and defend. Without INF+ARMOR your attacks just don't have that punch. It's nice on defense to have an option of either INF+ARTY or INF+ARMOR. I like to keep my armor units back on defense a lot, then move them forward to try to upset attacks. DEF arty can work havoc as well. There is almost always SOMEPLACE on the board where one side can mount a local attack. The Allies naturally have most of the go here, but Germans have many chances as well... > --The interaction of combat and logistics seems especially well done > ...and the supply decisions are by no means dull. It is a painless and elegant system. The Allies never have enough supplies to carry on sustained attacks across the board. In fact, they usually need to build up for a few days to have a good results, and decisions on where to make your next push is key. The supply sit for the German tends to be less critical, but still has important elements. > The Bad: > --Opening play seems stereotyped and dicey... Poor rolling by the Allies in > suppressing the coastal guns and/or lots of 6s by the Germans against > the landing boxes, and the Allies are done for.... > --As a subset of the above, the rules by which HQs are destroyed by > coastal guns means that a lucky roll can throw off the whole game. This IS perhaps the weakest part of the game. Odd, given that the invasion was so crucial, I wish a better system had been worked out. It is the loss of a HQ that can really screw things up. I don't recall totally the variants published in the General but I believe one fix for divs. that had lost their HQ was to allow them to trace up to 8 ? hexes back to a connecting coastal landing hex and be in supply. Of course, this puts them on an 8-hex leash unit their HQ comes back, but is certainly better than being out of supply. We usually just start over if the Allies have horrendous luck re the initial landings on turn 1. Few units have moved, and it's not too much trouble to reset the game, given how much time it takes to set up in the first place! > I lost the 82nd HQ to a fluke attack, and the 90th Inf. > Div. and VII (?) Corps HQs to coastal fire, and now Utah is crippled for a > month or more. We always just recycled the destroyed HQ's back onto the landing tack, so that they returned in 10 days. Of course, ten days sans the 82nd & 90th hurts. Of course, you now bring in the 4th full pace, etc. Also, we allow one unit from the HQ-less Div. to join in on any attack, since that would not burn supply for them anyway. But I agree it can throw things off... > A General article actually suggests some variant rules to > minimize this effect, but I'm not going to ask our group to use them in > the middle of the game. The 8 hex rule mentioned above is all I can recall.... > --I hate the extensive designer's notes (although the playtesters' tctical > hints are helpful). The whole package is full of "what a good boy am I" > preening about the accuracy of the research, the elegance of the design, > and the failings of previous designers and researchers. It has it's fair amount of subtle boasting, but with, what, 150+ references, hey, some is in order. Overall, I liked the designer notes, and can overlook the "wow, this is great" attitude much easier for a game that IS well researched and done, that for a poorly conceived one. Luftwaffe this ain't. > The Ugly: > --The map seems especially old-fashioned by contemporary standards, > closer to Tactics II than even the original AH Bulge, and the lack of hex > designations is annoying at times. It certainly is not flashy, but I actually like the map, colors, and design a lot. In fact, if you squint hard, it almost looks like some of the actual German maps from WWII, and for me, that works just fine! And it is very funtional, my only complaints being that as the counter density increases at the front line, it can be hard to discern what terrain is under a unit, esp the hill hexes. Also, the setup for the German counters is printed in a "tranparent" fashion directly on the map itself. Of course, with no hexes numbers, there were not a lot of options here. > --The counters use "historical" German-style unit symbols and are crammed > with irrelevant information in several sizes of type. My aging eyes > couldn't read half the stuff, and the symbols were confusing; Hmm. It does take some time to get accustomed to, but I have to admit I love them! I like being able to check out a Pz Battalion and see how many tanks it represents. True, this info is for historical purposes only, but you can actually take the counters for a division and get a fair idea of its TO&E. And I found it a nice break from the same old Nato markings. I suppose for greater realism, only the German counters should have been done this way. > All that said, the glowing recommendations that this game got when I asked > about it earlier on the list certainly seem to be justified. > Rusty Glad to see you guys are having a good time with this old friend of mine...beware of storms that wreck your Mulberries! I suppose my fondest memories involve a 2 player game where I was on the German side. Allies land in fairly good order, and the battle is sea-sawing back and forth, but the US has isolated Cherbourg, reducing my Divs. surrounded there, and making progress towards St. Lo. But I am carefully working each and every unit, falling back as I have to, making minor counterattacks, and keeping the line coherent. Cherbourg is written off, but I slowly begin to accumulate a bit of a reserve.... With everything out on the board for both players to see, it is hard to build up forces for a suprise attack, but with a bit of clever chatting, it can be done. "I can't believe I forgot to move them AGAIN!" Or, "That air interdictions of yours is forcing me to take my divisions all over the place!" Anyway, I slowly, yet carefully built up a decent force west of Caen. They LOOKED like they were wondering aimlessly towards St. Lo, as I kept things there stretched as much as I dared, with the US pushing harder, then, those Heavies came off the Strat Chart for the planned carpet bombing. Much bitting of nails on my part, but the Allied player was fixated on taking St. Lo, and burning supply as fast as he could get it to his div. HQ. I carefully moved a few more Nebelwerfers toward my intended jump off zone, mumbling something about how bad things looked... Then, the moment came...Bad weather! OV-2! I dared not wait any longer. I hit the stretched British lines (who were busy trying to get thru Caen) with everything I had over a 10 hex front, with entire NW regs. blasting a single hex at selected points. And it came...the STORM! I took some hard knocks initially, but the Allied player quickly ran low on supplies, and no aircraft or that dreaded naval fire to help out. The counteroffensive drove back the British until the tip was only about 6 hexes from the coast. The Allies were hampered becasue without supplies coming in they could not counterattack excepts for small jabs here and there, and even unit replacements ran out! Finally, the weather cleared, and I never got any closer than those six hexes to a landing box, but 4 British divisions were wrecked beyond repair. I pulled back a bit to straighten my lines some, and my attack bought me enough respite to bring on enough troops to basically seal in the Allies for good. About 10 turns later, we switched sides and started all over again. Stan From: Rusty Witek Subject: Re: Longest Day (AH) (long) On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Stan Grossman wrote: > > Forewarning: The Longest Day ranks as one of my all-time favorite games. It's quickly becoming one of mine, too. It's too bad that the scenarios are mainly teaching exercises, though. A campaign game is a major committment of time and space. > On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Rusty Witek wrote: > > > > The Bad: > > --As a subset of the above, the rules by which HQs are destroyed by > > coastal guns means that a lucky roll can throw off the whole game. > > This IS perhaps the weakest part of the game. Odd, given that > the invasion was so crucial, I wish a better system had been > worked out. It is the loss of a HQ that can really screw things > up. I don't recall totally the variants published in the General > but I believe one fix for divs. that had lost their HQ was to > allow them to trace up to 8 ? hexes back to a connecting coastal > landing hex and be in supply. Of course, this puts them on an > 8-hex leash unit their HQ comes back, but is > certainly better than being out of supply. Here's the variant from a General article called Battle Log: Truely The Longest Day, from around 1991 or so: We decided to implement a few rules modifications to smooth out some perceived rough spots in the rules and to add some special flavor to the event (Avaloncon). The following "house rules" were used: 1) German Coastal Artillery Fire: Coastal guns fire at units in landing boxes individually. If an HQ unit is hit, it is not destroyed and placed in the "10" box on the Allied Entry Track. Instead, it lands with double-disruption status, and units of that division cannot fire or attack for the next two turns. This rule tended to eliminate the wild possibilities of either a very successful landing for the Allies or an absolutely pathetic one. Since this was to be a demonstration game to showcase THE LONGEST DAY for the uninitiated, we wanted to achieve a reasonably average landing which would likely lead to an average game. We would highly recommend that players use this rule on June 6th and on all subsequent turns of invasion, especially if wishing a balanced game unaffected by extreme luck in the early turns. The one problem I see with the firing at units individually is in the placment of beachhead markers in the Assault Wave. If I remember correctly, a D result from coastal guns means no BH marker for the stack. The HQ rule seems quite reasonable--but then, I'm playing the Allies. Like I said, I'm not going to ask to have the rule used right after my HQs get whacked. > > I lost the 82nd HQ to a fluke attack, and the 90th Inf. > > Div. and VII (?) Corps HQs to coastal fire, and now Utah is crippled for a > > month or more. > > We always just recycled the destroyed HQ's back > onto the landing tack, so that they returned in 10 days. Of course, > ten days sans the 82nd & 90th hurts. Of course, you now bring in the > 4th full pace, etc. Well, it's 10 days till the HQ comes back, which means that the beach capacity goes down, so Utah only gets 2 stacking points a turn--I can't even bring in the infantry battalions directly. And I haven't taken Isigny yet, so the US beaches are still separated, with Panzer Lehr in between. That's why I'm considering a carpet bombing strike. > Also, we allow one unit from the HQ-less Div. > to join in on any attack, since that would not burn supply for > them anyway. Not allowed by the rules, though. You still have to be in supply to attack, even though the 1 unit doesn't expend supply. > > --The counters use "historical" German-style unit symbols and are crammed > > with irrelevant information in several sizes of type. My aging eyes > > couldn't read half the stuff, and the symbols were confusing; > > Hmm. It does take some time to get accustomed to, but > I have to admit I love them! I like being able to > check out a Pz Battalion and see how many tanks it represents. I literally was getting headaches trying to figure out which units were what. > Glad to see you guys are having a good time with this old friend > of mine...beware of storms that wreck your Mulberries! There's not much I can do about them though! [tale of counteroffensive snipped] I keep warning the British player to watch that his lines don't get stretched--but then I'm hoping for help east of Bayeux, too. A crackerjack game. Was the system or a variant ever used for any other games? Rusty From: Stan Grossman Subject: Re: Longest Day (AH) (long) On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Rusty Witek wrote: > It's quickly becoming one of mine, too. It's too bad that the scenarios > are mainly teaching exercises, though. A campaign game is a major > committment of time and space. Indeed, I don't care for the scenarios, and it does take up a lot of space. We actually split the board in "half", with the southern 2 sections being set up separetly, since most of the action their is just German reinf. coming on, rail cuts, interdiction, etc... I cut up and mounted most of the charts on separate pieces of cardboard, and built little cardboard legs for them. I stored most units, organized into countertrays, that were associated with a particular chart UNDER them, then would slide out the countertrays as needed. Helped a bit.... > Here's the variant from a General article called Battle Log: Truely The > Longest Day, from around 1991 or so: [snipped article] > > The one problem I see with the firing at units individually is in the > placment of beachhead markers in the Assault Wave. If I remember > correctly, a D result from coastal guns means no BH marker for the stack. Thanks for sending. It seems somewhat reasonable. My reading of the rules is that as long as the coastal hex is cleared of enemy units/strong points, a BH marker may still be placed, even if hit by a "D" result (which of course is treated as a L1 for each unit, causing the problem in the first place re HQ). This does not help at Omaha, since each landing hex has a coastal strong point, and disrupted units cannot attack, so no BH marker. But this is not a problem at Utah. > The HQ rule seems quite reasonable--but then, I'm playing the Allies. > Like I said, I'm not going to ask to have the rule used right after my HQs > get whacked. I guess that would not be proper. But most guys I gamed with were ok with the 8 hex rule, realizing that they could be on the other end of the stick in a future game. Because TLD is such a commitment, & you don't get in a lot of replays (perhaps the beach assault if things went badly) we were flexable about correcting minor things while the game was in progress. > > > I lost the 82nd HQ to a fluke attack, and the 90th Inf. > > > Div. and VII (?) Corps HQs to coastal fire, and now Utah is crippled for a > > > month or more. > > ....Of course, you now bring in the 4th full pace, etc. > > Well, it's 10 days till the HQ comes back, which means that the beach > capacity goes down, so Utah only gets 2 stacking points a turn--I can't > even bring in the infantry battalions directly. Yes, after 10 days it drops from 3 to 1 per BH. But you have/had time to bring on all the 4th Div, yes? What turn are you guys on now? I admit you are in a fix here. I have not lost both a US Airborne HQ AND one of the Utah landing div. HQ in the same game. The 90th is one of your weakest divisions, but that is of little consolation at this point. > And I haven't taken > Isigny yet, so the US beaches are still separated, with Panzer Lehr in > between. That's why I'm considering a carpet bombing strike. Yikes! Have you linked up ok with the British? It takes some time, but if you can persuade Monty to launch an attack from around the Bayeux area towards any German weak points in your general direction, this can take some pressure off the US player, at least until you can link up. I usually find this area to be the weakest -- it usually works out to be the area where the line of the 12th SS peters out...but hard to say since I can't see your map. :) > Also, we allow one unit from the HQ-less Div. > > to join in on any attack, since that would not burn supply for > > them anyway. > > Not allowed by the rules, though. You still have to be in supply to > attack, even though the 1 unit doesn't expend supply. True. We just used this once as a partial fix for the HQ problem. It obviously does not contribute much. > I keep warning the British player to watch that his lines don't get > stretched--but then I'm hoping for help east of Bayeux, too. Exactly. Given your sit, I harp on the British for help -- they can't win without you. If they landed in good shape, they should be fine for a while, in my experience, as long as the 6th AB holds their pos. (The counterattack I babbled about was not launched until well into the game, I forget the exact date). I find this little "sub-battle" to be critical for them. They need to keep that little bridgehead east of the Orne R. intact. Even if never used as a "flank" attack around Caen, it stretches the German lines a bit, and keeps them "honest" on their defense in this area. If you let the Germans anchor their defense on the Orne, it is quite solid. Usually a site of very bitter fighting.... > A crackerjack game. Was the system or a variant ever used for any other > games? > Rusty Agreed. We used the 8 hex rule a couple of games, and it worked ok. As for variants, we used the ones included with the game that allow for a subsequent allied air drop, & the Channel Island variant for the 319th Div. The allied player made some preparations and partially removed the 101st, but never executed the actual drop. Predictably, the 319 caused Cherbourg to hold on much longer, though we found supply, once it is isolated, to be critical for the Ger. We also set up the "Rommel Appointed C-in-C of OB West" variant. The Allied player looked at the map, then conceded defeat. Made for a fast game, though. :) Hope you find time to keep us posted on your game, Regards, Stan From: Rusty Witek Subject: Re: Longest Day (AH) On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Stan Grossman wrote: [Rusty wrote:] > > > > I lost the 82nd HQ to a fluke attack, and the 90th Inf. > > > > Div. and VII (?) Corps HQs to coastal fire, and now Utah is crippled for a > > > > month or more. > > > > ....Of course, you now bring in the 4th full pace, etc. > > > > Well, it's 10 days till the HQ comes back, which means that the beach > > capacity goes down, so Utah only gets 2 stacking points a turn--I can't > > even bring in the infantry battalions directly. > > Yes, after 10 days it drops from 3 to 1 per BH. But you have/had > time to bring on all the 4th Div, yes? What turn are you > guys on now? I believe we're starting June 11. All of 4th Inf. Div. is on and pushing out of Carentan toward Isigny and holding off portions of the German 91st; the 101st is holding St. Mere Eglise with remnants of the 82nd and trying to maintain the lines of the flooded area. Elements of the 82nd have already debarked to rebuild for a possible 2nd airdrop. Two full divisions would really have stabilized that area. Two 1s on 5-1 Allied attacks and a 6 on German defensive fire doomed the initial push on Isigny from Omaha. But c'est la dice de guerre. > And I haven't taken > > Isigny yet, so the US beaches are still separated, with Panzer Lehr in > > between. That's why I'm considering a carpet bombing strike. > > Yikes! Have you linked up ok with the British? It takes > some time, but if you can persuade Monty to launch an > attack from around the Bayeux area towards any German weak points > in your general direction, this can take some pressure off the > US player, at least until you can link up. The British are doing nicely. We linked up two turns ago, and a strike force of his armor from Bayeux is poised to destroy the 352nd Div. HQ next turn, which will really cause a crisis in the German center. The British player needs to watch his Ps & Qs, though, with all that German armor around Caen. We'll see in the next two turns whether a push from Omaha (preceded by a turn of defensive fire) can persuade Lehr to back off. It's really a drag that US units can't come in through the British BHs; he's got lift capacity to spare. > Agreed. We used the 8 hex rule a couple of games, and it worked > ok. As for variants, we used the ones included with the game Actually, I was asking if any other wargames ever used the Longest Day system. As you say, it's simple without being stupid, which helps a lot with the monsters. And I love monsters. Rusty From: Stan Grossman Subject: Re: Longest Day (AH) On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Rusty Witek wrote: > > I believe we're starting June 11. All of 4th Inf. Div. is on and pushing > ...toward Isigny...the 101st is holding St. Mere Eglise... Two full > divisions would really have stabilized that area. It's a tough go there given the loss of 2 div HQ, but you seem to be holding on, and doing well with what resouces you have. > Two 1s on 5-1 Allied > attacks and a 6 on German defensive fire doomed the initial push on > Isigny from Omaha. But c'est la dice de guerre. Fortunately, there is a lot of dicing yet to be done, so it tends to equal out. Still, it hurts when it is a critical attack, and one is already in a bit of a jam. The CRT is mostly attritional in nature, though you do have to be careful -- I can still recall a 2:1 attack my opponent worked up with 6 Inf battalions against a single stack of my Inf+Arm. Yep, he rolled a 1 with a -2 CAM, resulting in an "E". But this is rare.... > The British are doing nicely...and a strike > force of his armor from Bayeux is poised to destroy the 352nd Div. HQ... Whoa! Yes, that outta be a great help indeed! It also rare to catch a HQ vulnerable like this, but the 352nd starts out REALLY stretched out, from west of Isigny to east of Bayeux. While it envariably gets decimated if the game last long enough, I don't recall losing it's HQ.... > The British > player needs to watch his Ps & Qs, though, with all that German armor > around Caen. He is mostly likely facing 21 Pz, 12SS Pz, plus whatever Ind Pz battalions the I SS PZ Corp cared to doll out. Also, elements of 2 Pz should be arriving on the eastern edge soon if it June 11th. How does his 6 AB look? A bridgehead over the Orne? Naval bombardment can make attacks near the coast tough for the German. They don't kill, but disrupt attacks....Of course, you really don't WANT them that close.... > We'll see in the next two turns whether a push from Omaha > (preceded by a turn of defensive fire) can persuade Lehr to back off. If you indeed take out the 352nd HQ, and the Lehr persist in hanging between your two beaches, the front should be weak near Bayeux. I love defensive fire. It one of the games more interesting mechanics of play. Used as Rusty mentions, it can literally open up a door for offensive action, since it comes after the other side has moved, and if it opens up a hole, you can move ahead in your turn before the opponent can plug it. He then gets Mech movement, but armor alone is not nice on defense, and he can't even move that if you've gotten adjacent to it. > It's really a drag that US units can't come in through the British BHs; > he's got lift capacity to spare. About all you can do is "truck in" your supplies thru the British BH's, at least to the Omaha troops. > Actually, I was asking if any other wargames ever used the Longest Day > system. As you say, it's simple without being stupid, which helps a lot > with the monsters. And I love monsters. None I am aware of. But others might know of some. Most throw in a lot of ZOC's, whereas they are an exception in TLD. And even where they exist (hills, certain fortifications), they only hinder movement. You have to maintain a hex to hex front line. I love monsters myself, and this one is my favorite, no doubt. But speaking of monsters, does anybody have any input re GMT's The Three Days of Gettysburg? Did anyone besides Rusty get this far thru all my babbling? :) <- smiley face present and accounted for. Regards, Stan PS: Hope you keep us posted as you can. Still, I wish I could *see* the darn thing. Got a Camera and a scanner?? Could only make out the front lines mostly, but that would do! From: Rusty Witek Subject: Re: Longest Day (AH) On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Stan Grossman wrote: > > The British are doing nicely...and a strike > > force of his armor from Bayeux is poised to destroy the 352nd Div. HQ... > > Whoa! Yes, that outta be a great help indeed! It also rare > to catch a HQ vulnerable like this, but the 352nd starts out > REALLY stretched out, from west of Isigny to east of Bayeux. I don't think my opponents are quite used to the implications of the no-ZOC system. Since the German forces have been hugging the Omaha beachhead with flak and whatever INF they can muster, the line is stretched very thin. I also think that they haven't looked at the victory conditions very closely yet, so the threat of exiting Allied HQ is not in their plans. > . The British > > player needs to watch his Ps & Qs, though, with all that German armor > > around Caen. > > He is mostly likely facing 21 Pz, 12SS Pz, plus whatever Ind > Pz battalions the I SS PZ Corp cared to doll out. Also, elements > of 2 Pz should be arriving on the eastern edge soon if it June 11th. > How does his 6 AB look? A bridgehead over the Orne? I haven't examined his position in detail (having my own fish to fry), but he does have a strong bridgehead. It's under heavy attack from the east, however. I do have pretty extensive experience with 3DoG, and will send on a separate post (and appropriate subject header), but Alan P. seems to have put my post analyzing the game on the grognards site, so check that out if you like. Rusty From: Stan Grossman Subject: Re: Longest Day (AH) On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, Rusty Witek wrote: > I don't think my opponents are quite used to the implications of the > no-ZOC system. Since the German forces have been hugging the Omaha > beachhead with flak and whatever INF they can muster, the line is > stretched very thin. I also think that they haven't looked at the victory > conditions very closely yet, so the threat of exiting Allied HQ is not in > their plans. It is typical for the German to make a stand at the Aure Inferieure R. off Omaha, tying his left flank to Isigny. His right flank tends to hang in the air a bit here though -- as you mention, the units get quite stretched, and the Flak, though great when stacked with INF, can't hold alone. Have you had a chance to get over this line yet? Another nice feature of the game -- very staightforward and clearcut victory conditions. > > How does his 6 AB look? A bridgehead over the Orne? > > I haven't examined his position in detail (having my own fish to fry), but > he does have a strong bridgehead. It's under heavy attack from the east, > however. I harp on this little area for several reasons. One, it's control can be greatly influenced by the commitment each sides puts into it early in the game. Second, it is a critical location -- it IS where the German pins his right flank for the entire front, and usually for most of the game. A small Br. bridgehead can a big difference in hex coverage for the German. One merely holding a line of Benouville-Ranville-Breville-Gonneville-Merville can force a defensive front line 8-9 hexes long here. OTOH, if the British are pushed back across the Canal de Caen, only TWO hexes are needed to defend here (the hex where the 642 OST sets up, and the bridges that cross the canal and Orne R). A difference of 7 hexes is a lot, when you consider the German can construct a strong defensive line of just 13 hexes that extends along the canal, through Caen, all the way to the fortified regions west of it. > I do have pretty extensive experience with 3DoG, and will send on a > separate post (and appropriate subject header), but Alan P. seems to have > put my post analyzing the game on the grognards site, so check that out > if you like. > Rusty Glad to hear that, as I've recently picked it up and am going through the rules now. Send any comments on the game, they will be appreciated. I will check the grognard site on Monday for your analysis. Regards, Stan From: Rusty Witek Subject: More Longest Day Stan asked to be kept up to date on the progress of our Longest Day game, so I thought it wouldn't hurt to keep it on the list. (Four of us play from 7-11 on Tuesday nights, and we've been getting through 1.5/2 turns a session lately.) When last we tuned in, it was June 9, and the British had penetrated the German center south of Bayeux to catch the HQ of the 352 Div. unawares. The British left was well across the Orne, with the paras facing the 711 Div. and 12SS Pz. and 21 Pz. holding the Caen area. The Americans (me) were bottled up at Utah due to the loss of the HQs of 82 Airborne, 90 Inf., and VII Corps; 101 Airb. held the lines of the flooded area while 4th Inf. held Carentan and attempted to push out toward Isigny. The Utah perimeter was under heavy pressure from the Cherbourg-area defenders. Omaha was firmly linked with British west of Bayeux with 2nd Arm. and 1st Inf. pushing toward Isigny. Most of Pz. Lehr held Isigny between the two parts of the US forces. At the start of the June 10 turn, the heavy bombers came off the strategic inderdiction track in order to prepare for a carpet bombing attack on Pz. Lehr massed around Isigny. I hated to stop the interdiction of the German reinforcements, but my priority is linking up the US beaches and taking some pressure off Utah before the beach capacity falls on June 17th. More of 2 Arm and 2 Inf came ashore at Omaha while 9 Inf. began straggling ashore at Utah--I need bodies at Utah to hold the lines. I probably should have brought 90th Inf. ashore despite the loss of its HQ so that I could take advantage of the halved defense factors. Oh, well, die and learn. The Germans pulled much of 12SS Pz. to the center to attempt to block the British thrust, while much of Pz. Lehr did the same on the other side of the gap. This left much of Isigny and Carentan fairly weak for the next turn. OVR-1 weather canceled the carpet bombing strike, so the Germans redeployed their mech reserves in their mech movement phase to reinforce again. Nevertheless, on the June 11 turn the Omaha forces were able to kill several of the smaller supporting units to flank the big armor stacks (man, those 9-10-8's are murder in cities!). As a result, one of my exploitation stacks has taken one of the Isigny hexes behind the German armor, and I believe they'll have to give up the town or be surrounded in my mech move (we're halted at the start of the German June 11 turn). The Allies are near the end of their logistical leash, so the British attack won't really threaten St. Lo, but it should suck off a lot of the German reserves and force them to put weak units in the line. The British plan to send 11 Arm to the center to support the breakthrough attack, while the new INF Div. pushes against the 711 on the left. I feel a lot better about the US situation now that I'm over the rivers/flooded area to the south of Omaha. The Germans may well give up Isigny this turn and the Carentan area the next--at this point I don't care one way or the other, because I should be able to surround major units if they continue to try to keep the two beaches apart. Then I can start making some planning decisions without worrying about the health of the Utah area. Looking back, I can see that I made some significant mistakes due to my ignorance of the game system, both in terms of the enemy's capabilities and my own. Even with the unfortunate loss of the HQs I could have been much more effecient in seizing important terrain (rather than wandering around killing weak units) and in getting units ashore. I was rather demoralized by the losses to coastal fire, not realizing that it's better to take those losses in order to get the troops on land--it'll never be easier to get large forces ashore than in the opening phases, and the reduced units can be rebuilt. I'd almost wish that I had another chance at the opening moves except that the Allies took all but 1 BH, which I know is an excellent result. Also, the Germans had their own problems with some of the rules, so it all comes out in the wash. Bad weather certainly reduces the Allies' options, doesn't it? Rusty From: Stan Grossman Subject: Re: More Longest Day On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Rusty Witek wrote: > When last we tuned in, it was June 9, and the British had penetrated the > German center south of Bayeux to catch the HQ of the 352 Div. unawares. > The British left was well across the Orne, with the paras facing the 711 > Div. and 12SS Pz. and 21 Pz. holding the Caen area. The German is weak is this area early on already, and the loss of the 352 Div HQ means all it's units are at half on defense and movement, and they cannot attack, until the HQ returns. It may have little to return to. A strong British bridgehead across the Orne is critical, but Caen is still a very hard spot to crack. Besides the inherent defense a city hex gives, and it has 11, it is close to the eastern entry areas for the Germans, and their units tend to "stack up" there. > The Americans (me) were bottled up at Utah due to the loss of the HQs of > 82 Airborne, 90 Inf., and VII Corps; 101 Airb. held the lines of the > flooded area while 4th Inf. held Carentan and attempted to push out toward > Isigny. The Utah perimeter was under heavy pressure from the > Cherbourg-area defenders. Rusty seems to be accomplishing a lot here with a crippled force. Holding Carentan, only 5 hexes from Isigny, is notable. While he may not like it now, I'm happy to take attacks from the German 709, 243, or 91 Inf. Divs. that defend Cherbourg. They lack the armor and strength to seriously threaten the Utah troops, and any losses they take on attack are a bonus, since attrition favors the Allies. > Omaha was firmly linked with British west of Bayeux with 2nd > Arm. and 1st Inf. pushing toward Isigny. Most of Pz. Lehr held Isigny > between the two parts of the US forces. I think the German player may have misplaced this division here. It is unique among their OOB, with 8 Panzer and 3 Sturmgeshutz companies (most units in the game are battalion level) and FOUR 9-10-6 Panzergrenadier battalions. Hitler is claimed to have boasted "with this single division, I shall throw the Allies back into the sea!". It can't do that, but is remarkably flexable. Of course, its commitment here did persuade Rusty into a carpet bombing mission, and it does have to defend early on, so it's a close call. > At the start of the June 10 turn, the heavy bombers came off the strategic > inderdiction track in order to prepare for a carpet bombing attack on Pz. > Lehr massed around Isigny. I hated to stop the interdiction of the > German reinforcements, but my priority is linking up the US beaches and > taking some pressure off Utah before the beach capacity falls on June > 17th. It is always a tough decision to take the Heavy Bombers off their interdiction role to carpet bomb. Rusty in on key re the link up priority, but I usually depend on the British for help here in the early game. But then, I've never lost both the 82nd AB AND 90th Div HQ's during the invasion. Historically, the 90th was plauged by command problems, and is one of the weakest US divisions in the game, so if you have to lose one.... There is a possible lapse of 4 to 8 days between tripled beach capacity and functional Mulberry's, which almost restore you to near original capacity, if your include the minor port of Isigny. > More of 2 Arm and 2 Inf came ashore at Omaha while 9 Inf. began > straggling ashore at Utah--I need bodies at Utah to hold the lines. I > probably should have brought 90th Inf. ashore despite the loss of its HQ > so that I could take advantage of the halved defense factors. Oh, well, > die and learn. What is happening with the HQ-less 82nd? It was mentioned it was being regrouped for a follow-up drop, but it could work well in the flooded/river areas once its HQ returns, and indeed bodies are needed at Utah. Of course, withdrawl is essentially "free",, so if a player has enough units in the area, it is not an issue. > The Germans pulled much of 12SS Pz. to the center to attempt to block the > British thrust, while much of Pz. Lehr did the same on the other side of > the gap. This left much of Isigny and Carentan fairly weak for the next > turn. OVR-1 weather canceled the carpet bombing strike, so the Germans > redeployed their mech reserves in their mech movement phase to reinforce > again. It is hard for the Pz. Lehr not to be dragged into a defensive position at this stage. Tough luck on the OV-1 weather, but if you start with clear weather at this time, there is only a daily chance of 50% clear weather will continue. Once you drop to OV-1, you are looking at a 33% chance for the skies to clear. For now.... > Nevertheless, on the June 11 turn the Omaha forces were able to > kill several of the smaller supporting units to flank the big armor stacks > (man, those 9-10-8's are murder in cities!). Indeed they are! These are the four 9-10-6 units of the Lehr. They are doubled on defense in the city. You have to disrupt them with naval fire or bombers. Still, if they have one of those numerous Armor units with them, they are VERY tough. Rusty is using the best tactic here -- go around and remove them from supply, or hope other pressure forces them to pull back. > As a result, one of my > exploitation stacks has taken one of the Isigny hexes behind the German > armor, and I believe they'll have to give up the town or be surrounded in > my mech move (we're halted at the start of the German June 11 turn). Good move! Either the Lehr cuts and runs, or it is in trouble. It cannot hold this position. > The Allies are near the end of their logistical leash, so the British > attack won't really threaten St. Lo, but it should suck off a lot of the > German reserves and force them to put weak units in the line. The > British plan to send 11 Arm to the center to support the breakthrough > attack, while the new INF Div. pushes against the 711 on the left. This again is the German's weakest spot on the board (why I usually place the Panzer Lehr here originally instead of trying to cut off the Omaha-Utah linkup). At this point, I would not be overly concerned with St. Lo. British/US pressure here can really push the Germans back, esp if the 352 HQ is lost. Press them! It can bubble outward almost to Caumont (roughly between Caen and St. Lo). And a stretched German line is always a good thing for the Allies. > I feel a lot better about the US situation now that I'm over the > rivers/flooded area to the south of Omaha. The Germans may well give up > Isigny this turn and the Carentan area the next--at this point I don't > care one way or the other, because I should be able to surround major > units if they continue to try to keep the two beaches apart. Then I can > start making some planning decisions without worrying about the health of > the Utah area. Exactly. Though the Germans have a river line and bocage south of this pos., they will have trouble filling it in. All considered, I think Rusty has handled Utah well, and once a proper link is made, it won't be a big bother. > Looking back, I can see that I made some significant mistakes due to my > ignorance of the game system, both in terms of the enemy's capabilities > and my own. Even with the unfortunate loss of the HQs I could have been > much more effecient in seizing important terrain (rather than wandering > around killing weak units) and in getting units ashore.... I'd say given the loss of 2 Div. HQ plus a Corps HQ, you are doing good in my opinion. I've seen experienced US players do a lot worse with a lot more. > Bad weather certainly reduces the Allies' options, doesn't it? It does. The only question now is what to do with those Heavy Bombers. If the Lehr is going to back off, their use is questionable. Generally, I keep them on the Strategic Movement Track until I am ready to make a major offensive. They can't Carpet Bomb in anything but clear weather, but can be used for Strategic Interdiction on every turn, unless there is a storm. And when it comes to German units arriving on the map for the Allies, less is definatley more. :) Looking Forward to Next Week's Update, Stan From: Rusty Witek Subject: Longest Day, June 11-12 I've been posting the details of my ongoing Longest Day game, mostly for the delectation of Stan. Another German 1/2 turn-Allied 1/2 turn session for us, as one of the German players didn't show. The weather remains OVR-1, and the RR destruction has reached 48 of the required 60 points of damage. 2nd Pz arrived and placed itself in the yawning gap in the center of the German line between the Drome and the Vire where the destruction of 352 HQ had caused a crisis. More German strength filtered over from the Caen area to form a line along the Drome (I'm working from a historical map, not the game map, so some of these place references may be wrong). In the Cotentin the Cherbourg-area Germans tightened their leaguer around the Utah perimeter with stiff local attacks at St. Mere-Eglise and Carentan. Isigny itself was abandoned, but the bridge was blown and the river line held, so the US linkup still fell short. The British are in firm control of a strong bridgehead across the Orne and are eyeing the 711-Flak corps combo holding the line of the Dives. The thinning of the German line has allowed the British to close up well on Caen, and there's presently a sharp fight for the exposed Caen city hex. The British right is anchored on the Bayeux-St. Lo road, where it encloses the wooded area NW of St. Lo and is linked to US 29 Inf. US V Corps is in good shape, pressing Pz Lehr with 1 Inf. and 2 Arm across the Aure and anchored on Isigny. An attack at Isigny enabled a Ranger unit to cross into the coastal plain between the Vire and the Taute; I'm hoping the German will cede this area rather than attempt to hold the salient now that it's under artillery attack from both US lodgements. I certainly hope the Germans don't keep funneling units into this area to keep the beaches apart, especially if the weather gets worse; the naval gunfire is especially useful in blunting their thrusts. The Utah area remains a serious concern for me. A German battalion infiltrated across the Merderet, requiring me to garrison the whole river line rather than depending on the flooded area to protect the flank. 9 Inf. continues to straggle ashore, but there are barely enough units to hold the line, and a single tank battalion is the sole reserve for the entire beachhead; an all-out attack aimed at the landing boxes, especially in bad weather, could make life very difficult for me. I'm still kicking myself for a variety of D-Day mistakes at Utah that have made it much more vulnerable than it should be, but that's the price of learning the nuances of a fairly subtle system on the fly. It's a time of real frustration for the Allies; they just don't have the resources at this point to exploit the opportunities that present themselves. Many spots on the German lines are held by forces with strong attack factors but weak defense (Flak and AT units), but the Allies don't have the leisure, supply, or the hitting power to pick off the prime targets. There seem to be no end of German units to defensive fire without using supply, to negate combined arms bonuses for the Allies, or to supply punch to a local attack. We Allies are preaching patience to each other while watching the Germans apparently build up much more quickly than we can. The Allies have huge artillery units and many more units waiting on the entry spiral, but they seem very far away at this point. I fully empathize with the difficulties of the Allied commanders. The terrain is horrendous, and there always seems to be a conveniently placed river line or flooded hex to save the German's bacon and prevent me from exploiting my gains. There's never enough supply, and the strong German units have the ability to cause local problems enough to divert the Allied resources just enough to stabilize their line. Ground combat in this system is a mug's game. The CRT favors the defender except at the far end of the table--5-1 is a minimum attack, and you really need 7-1 or better. To concentrate that much means you're using horrendous amounts of supply, so each attack needs to be worth it. The US artillery groups can't even use the "1 unit-no supply" exception, while the big German flak units can fire in both the combat and DF phases without expending supply at all. The Allies eventually will have overwhelming artillery to use in the defensive fire phase, but it's not here yet, and every turn I agonize over whether to suport the ground attacks I *have* to make or save the artillery (and supply) to spoil the plans of the Germans. I'm starting to resent the designer a bit for all the advantages he's built into the German organization--the designer's notes tell us the that the attached units that the Allies had up the wazoo are "factored in" to the base combat strengths, while the Germans get the actual units in abundance. I have a lot more understanding of why commanders just stopped when the situation map apparently showed opportunities galore--I'd rather hold what I've got and wait for the help I know is coming, even though I like it not one little bit. Rusty From: Rusty Witek Subject: Re: Longest Day, June 11-12 Just a coda to be previous post, which I had to end rather abruptly. For all my complaints about the difficulties the Allies face, our position is actually rather a good one. 1) The quick arrival and deployment of the Panzer divisions may have made large gains more problematic, but they have been forced into defensive positions as they arrived, and will find it difficult to disengage for counter-offensive purposes, even though they are quite powerful in their immediate areas. Each turn the German has fewer units which are free to move in the mech phase, which reduces the frustration of building up a strong attack only to see the defending stacks double or triple in strength before that assault goes in. 2) The Allies have pushed a large salient into the bocage toward St. Lo, extending the German line for many hexes longer than would have been the case had the German center been able to withdraw more methodically. St. Lo is almost surely beyond the Allies' grasp at this point, but the approaches to the NE have been seized without the difficult slogging the terrain dictates. I think the British coup will pay dividends in the weeks to come. 3) The Utah beachhead has its very real problems, but its existence is not really threatened. Probably the worst effect of my poor performance in this area is that the timetable for the isolation of the Cotentin and the advance on Cherbourg is delayed for some time. A spectacular German coup before the linkup might make me eat my words, but I don't think the German is rash enough to gamble on trying to crush Utah at this point. Just wanted to redress my previous whining. Rusty From: Stan Grossman Subject: Re: Longest Day, June 11-12 On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Rusty Witek wrote: > I've been posting the details of my ongoing Longest Day game, mostly for > the delectation of Stan. And it has been enjoyable! > > Another German 1/2 turn-Allied 1/2 turn session for us, as one of the > German players didn't show. The weather remains OVR-1, and the RR > destruction has reached 48 of the required 60 points of damage. OV-1 keeps the carpet bombers off again, or have you returned them to their Strategic Interdiction role? The Germans only get the ability to move units quickly via Railmovement early in the game. Once it collapses, it is gone for good, and it looks like that should be in a few days. After that, it's on roads, and Tac interdiction can keep some of the Ger. div. from reachng the front for 4+ days, esp. those entering from the south. They have to wind a tortured trail upon the mapboard. A nasty trick is to box in a Ger. Div. using RR movement by "railcuts" when it is far from a road when the system collapses. > > 2nd Pz arrived and placed itself in the yawning gap in the center of the > German line between the Drome and the Vire where the destruction of 352 HQ > had caused a crisis. Good news! The 2nd Pz can be one of the first Div. at this stage the Ger. can try to keep as a local reserve to counterattack, etc. Forcing it onto the defense immediately takes it out of that role. The Ger. is paying the price for the loss of the 352 HQ. More German strength filtered over from the Caen area > to form a line along the Drome (I'm working from a historical map, not the > game map, so some of these place references may be wrong). On the map, the Drome R. runs from about 8 east of St. Lo, then turns north, towards the coast, passing about 3 hexes west of Bayeux. The primary road from Bayeux to St. Lo crosses it, naturally, and can be a hotly contested area. In the Cotentin > the Cherbourg-area Germans tightened their leaguer around the Utah > perimeter with stiff local attacks at St. Mere-Eglise and Carentan. Isigny > itself was abandoned, but the bridge was blown and the river line held, so > the US linkup still fell short. The area west of the Utah landing has several rivers, and a huge flooded area about 5 hexes in width! Once again, a proper link up is denied, but it is only a matter of time. The boys at Utah will be glad when it happens. > > The British are in firm control of a strong bridgehead across the Orne and > are eyeing the 711-Flak corps combo holding the line of the Dives. The Dives river! If the British can hold here, the Ger. are in a fix in this critical area. Depending on how far south this bridgehead is developed, the threat of an "Operation Goodwood" can loom in the German defense planning. The > thinning of the German line has allowed the British to close up well on > Caen, and there's presently a sharp fight for the exposed Caen city hex. Ah, the northern hex of Caen! The first in a series of slugfest where both sides wage a bloody battle to take/hold each of hexes of this city. The Ger. cannot concede Caen. This is one of the few areas on the map where clear territory is in abundance. Yet, it is a tough nut for the Br. to crack. > The British right is anchored on the Bayeux-St. Lo road, where it encloses > the wooded area NW of St. Lo and is linked to US 29 Inf. The riverlines in this area run mostly N-S, giving the chance for the Br./US to drive South between them. It's bocage, but it is still usually an area ripe for advance at this stage. This is roughly where the 352nd met its fate, and now being plugged by by 2nd Pz. > > US V Corps is in good shape, pressing Pz Lehr with 1 Inf. and 2 Arm across > the Aure and anchored on Isigny. An attack at Isigny enabled a Ranger > unit to cross into the coastal plain between the Vire and the Taute; I'm > hoping the German will cede this area rather than attempt to hold the > salient now that it's under artillery attack from both US lodgements. I don't see how the Ger. can hold here much longer. He cannot stop the linkup, Utah will hold, and he is being pressed hard in the center. The Allies on the board to stay. I hate giving up Bocage easily as the German (it causes heavier armor losses for the attacker). I > certainly hope the Germans don't keep funneling units into this area to > keep the beaches apart, especially if the weather gets worse; the naval > gunfire is especially useful in blunting their thrusts. It may be frustrating now, but may payoff in the long game. Once the Omaha-Utah link is completed, and if the Ger is still in a salient towards Isigny, he can be in a jam once this springs open. > > The Utah area remains a serious concern for me. A German battalion > infiltrated across the Merderet, requiring me to garrison the whole river > line rather than depending on the flooded area to protect the flank. 9 > Inf. continues to straggle ashore, but there are barely enough units to > hold the line, and a single tank battalion is the sole reserve for the > entire beachhead; an all-out attack aimed at the landing boxes, > especially in bad weather, could make life very difficult for me. A weak line with little reserve is always a concern, but the Ger. divisions that are aligned against Utah are not strong. 3 Infantry Div. supported by ad-hoc armor battalions, some composed of captured French tanks. Of course, because of the invasion HQ losses Rusty suffered here, they have not been pressed as much, and are in better shape than normal. Once you cut the Cotentin, they may regret their losses suffered on attack! Many spots on the German lines are held by forces with strong > attack factors but weak defense (Flak and AT units), but the Allies don't > have the leisure, supply, or the hitting power to pick off the prime > targets. There seem to be no end of German units to defensive fire > without using supply, to negate combined arms bonuses for the Allies, or > to supply punch to a local attack. The Flak units are a real pest and pain to the Allies. (These "Flak" units have little to do with AA function, instead being employed in the AT/short range artillery mode). They have essentially free supply, can fire in both def. & off. phases, only take up 1 stacking point (6 s.p. per hex, which can allow a Flak unit, 1 Battalion (3 s.p.), plus, for attack, a armor unit (moslty 2 s.p.), and are in abundance. Combined with INF, they "negate" the attackers INF+ARM CAM(Combined Arms Modifier). In short, there is only one solution. Kill them. :) We Allies are preaching patience to > each other while watching the Germans apparently build up much more > quickly than we can. The Allies have huge artillery units and many more > units waiting on the entry spiral, but they seem very far away at this > point. It IS a build up race at this point. The Orne river bridgehead is a big plus. What should become a large salient in the center is a plus. What hurts was the invasion loss re Utah. This is one reason I like to leave the Heavy Bombers on the Strategic Movement chart to interdict incoming Ger. reinforcements. Properly placed, they can cause serious bottlenecks for the incoming Ger. reinforcemnts. This forces them to come in slowly, and piecemeal, onto the board. > > I fully empathize with the difficulties of the Allied commanders. The > terrain is horrendous, and there always seems to be a conveniently placed > river line or flooded hex to save the German's bacon and prevent me from > exploiting my gains. There's never enough supply, and the strong German > units have the ability to cause local problems enough to divert the Allied > resources just enough to stabilize their line. Sounds very familiar. It is a grinding, hex-by-hex battle across most of the front. But you must attrite the Ger. forces as you can, under favorable odds. He tries to do the opposite, and hopes to seal you in. > > Ground combat in this system is a mug's game. The CRT favors the defender > except at the far end of the table--5-1 is a minimum attack, and you > really need 7-1 or better. To concentrate that much means you're using > horrendous amounts of supply, so each attack needs to be worth it. Exactly. You can't attack at all spots everywhere. No way. Some areas demand attack (cutting the Cotentin, taking the port of Cherbourg, etc.) Otherwise, you must seek areas where you have the advantage, be it terrain or weak opposition. The US > artillery groups can't even use the "1 unit-no supply" exception, while > the big German flak units can fire in both the combat and DF phases > without expending supply at all. The Allies eventually will have > overwhelming artillery to use in the defensive fire phase, but it's not > here yet, and every turn I agonize over whether to suport the ground > attacks I *have* to make or save the artillery (and supply) to spoil the > plans of the Germans. And these are the decisons that make the game so enjoyable for me! They are not easy, clear cut calls. (US Arty is essentially grouped in units of 3, whereas the Ger. have the luxury of ind. artillery.) You have to take the initiative , and let the German try to spoil your plans. As your arty builds up, you should feel more comfortable in this role. Consider for Arty some of those (5)-3-8 mortars once the big boys (12)-3-8 come on. They can be attached to a div., have some punch, and stack very nicely (1 sp). > > I'm starting to resent the designer a bit for all the advantages he's > built into the German organization--the designer's notes tell us the that > the attached units that the Allies had up the wazoo are "factored in" to > the base combat strengths, while the Germans get the actual units in > abundance. I agree that I always have qualms with the term "it is factored in". My take being, give me the units and let ME "factor" them in myself. There are some design decisions that seem to favor the German, but in the long haul, they are at a real, and historical, disadvantage. At this stage, you are not going to be "thrown back into the sea". Yet, there exist the possibility of being "boxed in". The game can run very tight in this respect. > > I have a lot more understanding of why commanders just stopped when the > situation map apparently showed opportunities galore--I'd rather hold what > I've got and wait for the help I know is coming, even though I like it not > one little bit. Exactly! Thanks for the update, hope you can get all involved in next weeks session. Stan From: Stan Grossman Subject: Re: Longest Day, June 11-12 On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Rusty Witek wrote: > Just a coda to be previous post, which I had to end rather abruptly. > > For all my complaints about the difficulties the Allies face, our position > is actually rather a good one. I think so... > > 1) The quick arrival and deployment of the Panzer divisions may have made > large gains more problematic, but they have been forced into defensive > positions as they arrived, and will find it difficult to disengage for > counter-offensive purposes, even though they are quite powerful in their > immediate areas. That's it! You have already forced 2 Pz onto the defense! He is usually my mobile reserve at this point as the Ger. player. Each turn the German has fewer units which are free to > move in the mech phase, which reduces the frustration of building up a > strong attack only to see the defending stacks double or triple in > strength before that assault goes in. The ability to keep your armor units BACK is key for Ger. defense. Normally, after the Allies move their units into attack pos., the Ger. gets to move up his armor in the Mech. phase to the pos. you intend to attack. (This works both ways, it is just that the Allies tend to be doing most of the attacking). Depriving the Ger. of this ability is a good thing. (If you have a unit adjacent to an enemy armor unit, it cannot move in the Mech. phase.) > > 2) The Allies have pushed a large salient into the bocage toward St. Lo, > extending the German line for many hexes longer than would have been the > case had the German center been able to withdraw more methodically. St. > Lo is almost surely beyond the Allies' grasp at this point, but the > approaches to the NE have been seized without the difficult slogging the > terrain dictates. I think the British coup will pay dividends in the weeks > to come. It sure will. The German may in fact have to give up a lot of good, defendable terrain just to form a coherent front. But the loss of the 352nd must be exploited. Hurt the 2nd Pz! Attack at it's weak points, not necessarily in the direct area you wish to advance, but killing off units always helps. If a favorably CAM exist, exploit it. As the Ger. line thins, you then have chances to direct your attacks where you like. > > 3) The Utah beachhead has its very real problems, but its existence is not > really threatened. Probably the worst effect of my poor performance in > this area is that the timetable for the isolation of the Cotentin and the > advance on Cherbourg is delayed for some time. A spectacular German > coup before the linkup might make me eat my words, but I don't think the > German is rash enough to gamble on trying to crush Utah at this point. Very true. There are some words of caution needed. The Ger. can slip another Div in there. But given your report on the sit., I don't see this as an option for them. Utah is a bit crippled, but safe. What have you done with the 82 AB? From: Rusty Witek Subject: Re: Longest Day, June 11-12 On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Stan Grossman wrote: > On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Rusty Witek wrote: > > 3) The Utah beachhead has its very real problems, but its existence is not > > really threatened. [snip] > Very true. There are some words of caution needed. The Ger. can slip > another Div in there. But given your report on the sit., I don't > see this as an option for them. Utah is a bit crippled, but safe. > > What have you done with the 82 AB? Ah, there is another example of my greenness in the opening moves. Once the 82 HQ was lost, I disembarked what I could of the division, since we're playing with the 2nd airdrop option. I figured I'd rebuild them and threaten to drop them later, which would be preferable to having them helpless in the beachhead. That probably wasn't a bad idea in regard to the AB artillery, which would be totally useless. But I should have kept the 82 battalions on to thicken the line; when the 90 INF HQ was lost with its initial elements I kept the rest of it offboard too. As a result, Utah is desperately short of bodies, and even the halved defense strengths of the paras would be welcome. (Oh, and several battalions of the 82nd are trapped in the flooded areas--with only 2 MP per turn for being out of supply they are unable to cross the RR bridges into the US perimeter.) I think the second airdrop is a pipedream anyway. I believe it needs to be planned 21 turns in advance, so by the time the airborne is rebuilt and the new drop plotted, who knows where a rational drop zone would be? Oh, well, the Allies have had good fortune enough, and our opponents have had their own share of rocky patches in learning the system. Still, I think most wargamers are familiar with that sensation of, "Oh, OK, now I've got it--let's start over!" that I've been having from time to time. I'll do better next time, and you know it says a lot when I'm already thinking of a "next time" on a game that may take nearly a year to play to completion. Rusty From: Rusty Witek Subject: Re: Longest Day, June 11-12 On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Stan Grossman wrote: > OV-1 keeps the carpet bombers off again, or have you returned them > to their Strategic Interdiction role? They're interdicting--the juicy carpet targets have dispersed and the weather is so iffy. There are a couple of entry track boxes where the Allies can make things miserable for the Germans with the heavy bombers. > > US V Corps is in good shape, pressing Pz Lehr with 1 Inf. and 2 Arm across > > the Aure and anchored on Isigny. An attack at Isigny enabled a Ranger > > unit to cross into the coastal plain between the Vire and the Taute; I'm > > hoping the German will cede this area rather than attempt to hold the > > salient now that it's under artillery attack from both US lodgements. > > I don't see how the Ger. can hold here much longer. He cannot > stop the linkup, Utah will hold, and he is being pressed hard > in the center. The Allies on the board to stay. I hate giving > up Bocage easily as the German (it causes heavier armor losses > for the attacker). Well, remember, it's early days, and while the Allies are interested in stretching the German line, we too have to consider the strong local attacks that the German can muster, given the advantages I've complained enough about already. Our line gets stronger every turn, but it's not yet a given that German attacks, say, just west of Caen, or in the bocage, might not cause us a world of hurt (perhaps even a BH or two). When the US beaches are linked, that gives up one of the strong cards the Germans now have. I'm not surprised to see my opponent being willing to commit a few pieces of Pz Lehr to keep me from getting what I so obviously want and what will complete the opening phase of the game. > A weak line with little reserve is always a concern, but > the Ger. divisions that are aligned against Utah are not strong. 3 > Infantry Div. supported by ad-hoc armor battalions, some composed > of captured French tanks. Of course, because of the invasion HQ > losses Rusty suffered here, they have not been pressed as much, > and are in better shape than normal. Once you cut the Cotentin, > they may regret their losses suffered on attack! There's also a corps of flak trundling down from Cherbourg. Once the US gains freedom of movement at Utah, there should be lots of opportunities to keep the Germans guessing exactly where the attack will come. The St.Lo German player is a tough, aggressive defender who quickly saw what the German troops can do, but he's also a realist who won't allow himself to get pinned too long. It will be very interesting to see what gets ceded to the Allies and when. Rusty From: Stan Grossman Subject: Re: Longest Day, June 11-12 X-To: Rusty Witek On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Rusty Witek wrote: > On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Stan Grossman wrote: > > > On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Rusty Witek wrote: > > > 3) The Utah beachhead has its very real problems, but its existence is not > > > really threatened. > [snip] > > Very true. There are some words of caution needed. The Ger. can slip > > another Div in there. But given your report on the sit., I don't > > see this as an option for them. Utah is a bit crippled, but safe. > > > > What have you done with the 82 AB? > > Ah, there is another example of my greenness in the opening moves. Once > the 82 HQ was lost, I disembarked what I could of the division, since > we're playing with the 2nd airdrop option. I figured I'd rebuild them and > threaten to drop them later, which would be preferable to having them > helpless in the beachhead. That probably wasn't a bad idea in regard to > the AB artillery, which would be totally useless. But I should have kept > the 82 battalions on to thicken the line; when the 90 INF HQ was lost with > its initial elements I kept the rest of it offboard too. As a result, > Utah is desperately short of bodies, and even the halved defense > strengths of the paras would be welcome. True, half is better than nothing, and Utah needs bodies, esp. until you link up. It is a sacrifice to lose them (the 82), or anybody else for that matter, but if they are on board, keep them there. It's a tough call, but the AB are expendable. My playing had shown the second drop is not needed, but it differs from game to game. (Oh, and several battalions of > the 82nd are trapped in the flooded areas--with only 2 MP per turn for > being out of supply they are unable to cross the RR bridges into the US > perimeter.) Yuck! Another reason to have kept them on board, but... > > I think the second airdrop is a pipedream anyway. I believe it needs to > be planned 21 turns in advance, so by the time the airborne is rebuilt and > the new drop plotted, who knows where a rational drop zone would be? Exactly. Under most circumstances, you don't a 2nd drop. Plus, the AB, with supply, are your best troops in the flooded areas. > Oh, well, the Allies have had good fortune enough, and our opponents have > had their own share of rocky patches in learning the system. Still, I > think most wargamers are familiar with that sensation of, "Oh, OK, now > I've got it--let's start over!" that I've been having from time to time. > I'll do better next time, and you know it says a lot when I'm already > thinking of a "next time" on a game that may take nearly a year to play to > completion. Indeed! I spent almost four straight years with just TLD, and have never had a better time of gaming. I have always thought, "well, I'm going to spend "x" number of hours gaming, so does it really matter with what game(s), as long as I'm having a good time? One reason a "monster" game has never put me off. It's always nice to have a game's rules and nuances under your belt, so you can focus just on strategy. And from what I gather, you are, or soon will be, there.... Stan From: Rusty Witek Subject: Longest Day: The End Well, our Longest Day game came to an abrupt end on the June 13 turn last night when the sole German player, frustrated with having to move the whole German army by himself because of the repeated absences of the Caen-area player, and faced with a large British attack on the thin line holding the River Dives/flooded area, said he wanted to quit and start over. While the Allies felt like we had a good position (the rail system had collapsed, the thrust from Omaha was getting close to Carentan, and the British were poised for a large attack on the weak German right where the missing player had commanded) we also felt sympathetic to the German's plight. Both sides had played several rules wrong (the Germans had forgotten about Strategic Movement for the first week, for example), and felt like we could give the game a better try if we reorganized and started again, and certainly we couldn't expect one person to play the entire German army. (Any serious players in the Orlando, FL area who might like to get on board let me know.) Nevertheless, in looking at the game, several points look tough for the Allies. We maxed out the Allied beachheads and the US still had difficulty getting enough troops on board, especially at Utah; meanwhile the British beach capacity went unused). Several people have posted me privately that usually the Br. 6th AB HQ is destroyed and the Orne bridgehead reduced, while the Utah/Omaha linkup is prevented and Utah crushed. I can see both of those things happening now that both sides understand more about the system from the beginning. I was shocked at the amount of punch one of those supposedly weak German coastal divisions can pack when backed up with the copious flak. Funny how the motorized Allied infantry battalions only rate a 5-6-8 with most of the divisional extras "factored in," (with the motorized status actually a disadvantage in the flooded terrain) while a line German infantry unit rates 4-5-4 with lots of little attached units to add tactical flexibility. I've mentioned before that the flak also is a design irritant--it can fire twice a turn and never use supply, effectively doubling or tripling the usable firepower for the Germans--the by-no-means redoubtable 77th Inf. division came close to eliminating my Carentan bridgehead with attacks of over 70 factors that used exactly 1/2 supply unit. The argument that the Luftwaffe had their own dumps and ammo was never a problem strikes me as the kind of Germanophilia that permeates the design notes--supply is perhaps *the* crucial element of the game system, and excusing the German flak from having to move and consume it is a huge advantage. Meanwhile, the ubiquitous US flak that guarded the beachheads isn't even present because it historically wasn't used in the line--but it still wouldn't be there if the Germans attempted to drive to the beachheads and wipe them out. It's true we never got to the attritional phase where the Allied advantages would come to the fore, but there's this "The Allies have all these big dumb cookie-cutter units while the Germans have all this cool and useful stuff" thing that I, now moving into serious whining mode, did not care for at all. I think as the Allies that I will try to get us to use the variant HQ-destruction rules from The General to avoid at least some of the 1st turn luck syndrome, while the Germans will retain the useful (for them) bridgeblowing variant. The 2nd airdrop is useless, since it has to be planned 21 turns in advance, so that won't be in play again. Despite my complaints, I'm looking forward to the new start now that I have more of a clue as to what I need to do, so I don't mind if the German players are more efficient too. Rusty From: Stan Grossman Subject: Re: Longest Day: The End At 08:15 AM 8/15/97 -0400, Rusty Witek wrote: >True, although in the early days there's not always enough artillery to >specifically go after the 88s. There are key attacks to be supported in >regular combat and counterattacks to be blunted in defensive fire. I >certainly could foresee a phase of the battle where the Allies >methodically take out the flak or force it back off the line, but we >hadn't gotten there yet. Good point. And once you get there, you have a bit of glee in your eye everytime a stepless 4-2-8 Flak unit is removed. I always "console" the German player on it's regrettable loss. :) >Alas, I was the American player, reduced to cursing the shortsightedness >and insularity of the higher-ups. Yes, but as the U.S. you can have a bit of fun, and practical fun at that, as I mentioned by subordinating 3 units of your choice to your Divs. Of course, you probably had not reached the stage of the game where you had a lot of leeway in this area, since you had some serious headaches at Utah. Stan Stan Grossman Houston, Texas gjoseph@bcm.tmc.edu From: Stan Grossman Subject: Re: Longest Day: The End At 07:34 PM 8/13/97 -0400, Rusty Witek wrote: >Well, our Longest Day game came to an abrupt end on the June 13 turn last >night when the sole German player, frustrated with having to move the >whole German army by himself because of the repeated absences of the >Caen-area player, and faced with a large British attack on the thin line >holding the River Dives/flooded area, said he wanted to quit and start >over. Sorry to hear this. But it's better to start over now and learn from your experience for the next go. I never minded playing a side by myself, but would hate to be in the Ger. Sit. as I picture it... > ...Both sides had played several rules wrong (the Germans had >forgotten about Strategic Movement for the first week, for example), and >felt like we could give the game a better try if we reorganized and >started again, and certainly we couldn't expect one person to play the >entire German army. (Any serious players in the Orlando, FL area who might >like to get on board let me know.) Good points. Wish I was closer, but I'm afraid it would be a bit long of a commute for me. :) >...Several people have posted me >privately that usually the Br. 6th AB HQ is destroyed and the Orne >bridgehead reduced, while the Utah/Omaha linkup is prevented and Utah >crushed. From my experience, I'd agree on the plight of the 6th AB and the Orne BH, esp. if the German player is tuned into this area. It can be quite a bloody struggle if the Br. knows the same, and does all he can to hold it. However, I find it interesting that others would comment that USUALLY the Utah/Omaha linkup is prevented and that Utah is crushed. I've sent these things happen, but they were not commmon. As the German player, I usually decide what I am going to do overall after the very first day of the Landings, and this tends to revolve around Omaha. If it is really crippled, I will try to take it out/prevent the linkup. Once done, indeed Utah can be slowly strangled to death, and that's that. OTHO, If Omaha is in good shape, I try to discomfort the Allied buildup, linkups, and upset there timetables, but basically plan on a strategy of buildup and defense that will seal the Allies in. For this midgame strategy, I will give ground slowly -- the only place I never concede is the Caen area, and of course, the Orne BH. I also try to create a real reserve for either a possible counterattack, or to plug any holes before they gain any momentum. But whichever strategy is employed, it needs full committment. > >Funny how the motorized Allied infantry battalions only rate a 5-6-8 with >most of the divisional extras "factored in," (with the motorized >status actually a disadvantage in the flooded terrain) while a line German >infantry unit rates 4-5-4 with lots of little attached units to add >tactical flexibility. I've mentioned before that the flak also is a >design irritant--it can fire twice a turn and never use supply, >effectively doubling or tripling the usable firepower for the Germans--the >by-no-means redoubtable 77th Inf. division came close to eliminating my >Carentan bridgehead with attacks of over 70 factors that used exactly 1/2 >supply unit. The argument that the Luftwaffe had their own dumps and ammo >was never a problem strikes me as the kind of Germanophilia that permeates >the design notes--supply is perhaps *the* crucial element of the game >system, and excusing the German flak from having to move and consume it is >a huge advantage. I agree the Flak supplies rules seem too generous, and I've never been a fan of the "it's factored" at this level. Even if it does reduce counters for Allies, with as many as there are already, it can only help so much. Meanwhile, the ubiquitous US flak that guarded the >beachheads isn't even present because it historically wasn't used in the >line--but it still wouldn't be there if the Germans attempted to drive to >the beachheads and wipe them out. True. Of course, if the last thing between the German and your beachhead is a US flak unit, something has probably really gone wrong for the Allies. :) But I agree they probably should have been included. They could have been designed and had rules for them to keep them within their historical limits of usage. Hey, perhaps you can design some of your own? In any case, you could then withdraw them for "free" once the crisis has passed.... It's true we never got to the >attritional phase where the Allied advantages would come to the fore, but >there's this "The Allies have all these big dumb cookie-cutter units while >the Germans have all this cool and useful stuff" thing that I, now moving >into serious whining mode, did not care for at all. I can see Rusty's point, but without these extra little German units to help glue things together for them, they would evaporate very rapidly as the grinding attritional phase of the game began. And of course, something DID historical hold these German divisions together much longer than they should have. Whether is was the extra Flak, other extra tactical units, the terrain, or other factors, I cannot say for sure. > >I think as the Allies that I will try to get us to use the variant >HQ-destruction rules from The General to avoid at least some of the 1st >turn luck syndrome, while the Germans will retain the useful (for them) >bridgeblowing variant. The 2nd airdrop is useless, since it has to be >planned 21 turns in advance, so that won't be in play again. I think the 8-hex rule or other such variant is good to use for the initial landing. We always used the 2nd Drop rule, but the troops were never actually dropped. I would not try to "bargain" for it by giving the Germans any added help, however. > >Despite my complaints, I'm looking forward to the new start now that I >have more of a clue as to what I need to do, so I don't mind if the German >players are more efficient too. I hope you can recruit a new player and keep us posted on the second go at the game. One thing you could try for the German side is to follow the game's suggestion of having the second player control the Luftwaffe Units, which includes those pesky Flak. :) It is not an elegant division of play, but then, neither was the historical division of command. Regards, Stan Stan Grossman Houston, Texas gjoseph@bcm.tmc.edu From: Alan Moorhouse Subject: Re: Longest Day: The End >---------- >From: Stan Grossman[SMTP:gjoseph@BCM.TMC.EDU] >Sent: 14 August 1997 19:48 >To: Multiple recipients of list CONSIM-L >Subject: Re: Longest Day: The End > > > > I agree the Flak supplies rules seem too generous, and I've never >been > a fan of the "it's factored" at this level. Even if it does reduce > counters for Allies, with as many as there are already, it can only > help so much. My tactic is to target the 88mm Flak units with your artillery, once they are cleared out the 1 and 2 factor flak units are only a combined arms problem. > > SNIP > > It's true we never got to the >>attritional phase where the Allied advantages would come to the fore, but >>there's this "The Allies have all these big dumb cookie-cutter units while >>the Germans have all this cool and useful stuff" thing that I, now moving >>into serious whining mode, did not care for at all. I disagree about the allied units ( particularly on the British side). Check out the 79th Armored Division Units (Crocodile and AVREs) (my grandads old unit), Sexton SPA and the gorgeous 17 Pounder anti-tank unit. Plus nothing much stands up to a defensive fire from a six pack of UK heavy artillery once they are on (usually). > I can see Rusty's point, but without these extra little German units > to help glue things together for them, they would evaporate very >rapidly > as the grinding attritional phase of the game began. And of course, > something DID historical hold these German divisions together much >longer > than they should have. Whether is was the extra Flak, other > extra tactical units, the terrain, or other factors, I cannot say for >sure. Alan Moorhouse alanm@lanbase.co.uk From: Stan Grossman Subject: Re: Longest Day: The End At 11:00 AM 8/15/97 +0100, Alan Moorhouse wrote: > >My tactic is to target the 88mm Flak units with your artillery, once >they are cleared out the 1 and 2 factor flak units are only a combined >arms problem. In the early stages of the game, if defending alone, they can be picked off, if you have the arty/supplies to spare. In general, as the Allies, I consider them a pest, but have learned to watch out for massed Nebelwerfer attacks later in the game that can seriously do some damage, if concentrated... >"The Allies have all these big dumb cookie-cutter units... > I disagree about the allied units ( particularly on the British side). >Check out the 79th Armored Division Units (Crocodile and AVREs) (my >grandads old unit), Sexton SPA and the gorgeous 17 Pounder anti-tank >unit. The Br. do have some very unique and interesting formations, but much moreso than the American side Rusty was playing. You can add a bit of flavor to your US divisions by subordinating different types of units to them. Three batallions of Shermans make a statement. :) >Plus nothing much stands up to a defensive fire from a six pack of UK >heavy artillery once they are on (usually). Heavy punchers indeed. As well as the US heavy arty. Only supply considerations keep them at bay.... Stan > >> I can see Rusty's point, but without these extra little German units >> to help glue things together for them, they would evaporate very >>rapidly >> as the grinding attritional phase of the game began. And of course, >> something DID historical hold these German divisions together much >>longer >> than they should have. Whether is was the extra Flak, other >> extra tactical units, the terrain, or other factors, I cannot say for >>sure. > >Alan Moorhouse >alanm@lanbase.co.uk Stan Grossman Houston, Texas gjoseph@bcm.tmc.edu From: Rusty Witek Subject: Re: Longest Day: The End On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Alan Moorhouse wrote: > My tactic is to target the 88mm Flak units with your artillery, once > they are cleared out the 1 and 2 factor flak units are only a combined > arms problem. True, although in the early days there's not always enough artillery to specifically go after the 88s. There are key attacks to be supported in regular combat and counterattacks to be blunted in defensive fire. I certainly could foresee a phase of the battle where the Allies methodically take out the flak or force it back off the line, but we hadn't gotten there yet. > > It's true we never got to the > >>attritional phase where the Allied advantages would come to the fore, but > >>there's this "The Allies have all these big dumb cookie-cutter units while > >>the Germans have all this cool and useful stuff" thing that I, now moving > >>into serious whining mode, did not care for at all. > > I disagree about the allied units ( particularly on the British side). > Check out the 79th Armored Division Units (Crocodile and AVREs) (my > grandads old unit), Sexton SPA and the gorgeous 17 Pounder anti-tank > unit. Alas, I was the American player, reduced to cursing the shortsightedness and insularity of the higher-ups. > Plus nothing much stands up to a defensive fire from a six pack of UK > heavy artillery once they are on (usually). I'll bear that in mind for our next outing. Rusty From: Rusty Witek (by way of Alan Poulter ) Subject: Longest Day Redux (long, as usual) Well, we reorganized with two new players and started over on this classic AH monster; last night we finished the June 6 and Allied player-turn for June 7, not bad for the game-within-a-game that is the invasion turn. (it really helps when you don't need to look up the full procedure for every phase and sub-phase.) We used the variant rules whereby coastal fire disrupts HQs for 2 turns rather than eliminates them; that affected 1 HQ at Omaha and one British HQ. While the restart was at the instigation of the German player, I can't help but think that it mostly benefited the Allies. The German doesn't have much to do on June 6 except hope to roll high for the coastal guns, then try to get some speed bumps in place and reorganize the German divisions so they'll be in supply on June 7. The Allies, on the other hand, were much more efficient in first suppressing, then eliminating the coastal guns, so while the British and Omaha landings were bloodied, the Allies are ashore in strength with all but one of the BHs (it's at Omaha) intact. Utah is thriving, and the long-term prospects for the Allies are better than in the previous game. The damage: Utah (that's me): This time 101 AB had the bad luck; its HQ drifted next to a German unit which wasted it in defensive fire, so they'll be the odd men out for 10 turns (no withdrawal for them this time, that's for sure.) Both AB divisions had rocky landings, with many steps lost, but at least this time I lost the HQ due to bad luck rather than to my own ignorance. 4th Inf has pushed east through Carentan and is molesting the miscellaneous flak units in the coastal plain, this time taking a much more active role in the linkup with Omaha. 82 AB is pushing through the flooded area, while the unscathed 90th Inf. is already poised to eliminate the last coastal-gun threat to Utah and push toward Cherbourg. This whole sector is in great shape and should either enable the linkup to made smoothly or force the Germans to commit major formations to the area. Either one would be fine with me. Omaha: One bloody repulse by a strongpoint, an evil dieroll by a coastal gun, and the disruption of an HQ resulted in a solid landing, but with 1 Inf. badly chewed up and 29 Inf out of it for the moment. Oh, and the Rangers died too, which is too bad because they're very useful in the flooded areas south of Omaha. Nevertheless, the coastal guns are gone or all but, and this is the easiest point to reinforce for the US. So less spectacular results than last time, but the long-term prospects are fine. The linkup with the British is made, and the advent of 2 Arm. on the 8th will open up some options very nicely. The 12-3-8 corps artillery survived this time, too, which always brings sunshine to the US day. British: Here's where the Germans did best this time. 6AB HQ was defensive fired to death in due course, and this time it was the British player who paid for putting an HQ in harm's way when 50 INf. HQ was taken out. It will be some time before the British can reorganize to take full advantage of his available assets. The Orne bridgehead is not yet under attack, but it remains to be seen what the German intentions are in this sector. 21 Pz has closed up on Caen, as is to be expected. Overall the invasion rolls went more the Allies' way than the Germans' (4 hits by US rockets--1/6 chance each--really helped take some of the pressure off the Omaha beach assaults). The Germans were mostly reduced to hoping for 6s and generally not getting them. What we learned from last time: The Germans seem to have developed a healthy respect for the difficulties of operating under the guns of the Allied naval forces. They have not tried to hold any coastal hexes, and already I can see them figuring out where to set up the line back out of naval range. We also have learned some of the nuances of the defensive fire phase. By saving as much artillery as possible for defensive fire, the Allies can force the Germans to disengage. Since it's so hard to get good ground combat odds, using lots of artillery to bump up one column is a waste of resources, when the same, say, 13 factors (a US divisional artillery complement) can threaten several weak units in defensive fire at no risk to Allied units. The Germans have shown no inclination to get adjacent to our units with 30 or 40 factors of artillery hanging around. Also, in the previous game I tended to stack armor with infantry to get the combined arms bonus on defense. But the mech units which aren't actually spearheading an assault need to be back off the line so as to respond to German threats in the mech move phase. It's also a dirty trick to send a mech unit adjacent to a weak German unit, then blast it in defensive fire. This should be a fun one. We have a much better idea this time of what units can and can't do, so we can concentrate on manipulating the very subtle game mechanics over the long-term. Rusty From: Stan Grossman Subject: Re: Longest Day Redux (long, as usual) Rusty wrote:[in part]: Well, we reorganized with two new players and started over on this classic AH monster; last night we finished the June 6 and Allied player-turn for June 7, not bad for the game-within-a-game that is the invasion turn. Good to hear you have got a new player and are up and running so quickly! While the restart was at the instigation of the German player, I can't help but think that it mostly benefited the Allies.... Allies are ashore in strength with all but one of the BHs (it's at Omaha) intact. Utah is thriving, and the long-term prospects for the Allies are better than in the previous game. Indeed, it sounds as though you have a better go at things this second time around landing-wise, and the German got in a bit of a jam with a weaker landing the first go.... The most crucial thing I feel the German must do after the first turn landings is decide if some sort of local counterattack or forward placement of troops can really hurt the Allies, OR resign to the fact the Allies are staying ashore, and play for the pin. Despite the wealth of exotic units the Ger. player has, he is, with equal play, at a disadvantage, given a good Allied Landing. The damage: Utah (that's me): This time 101 AB had the bad luck; its HQ drifted next to a German unit which wasted it in defensive fire, so they'll be the odd men out for 10 turns.... Bummer on the 101st, it's one or the other it seems! If you can double them up in good defensive terrain, they can hold some parts of the line, though they will be targets for the Ger. due to their half defense. 4th Inf has pushed east through Carentan and is molesting the miscellaneous flak units in the coastal plain, this time taking a much more active role in the linkup with Omaha. 82 AB is pushing through the flooded area, while the unscathed 90th Inf. is already poised to eliminate the last coastal-gun threat to Utah and push toward Cherbourg. This whole sector is in great shape and should either enable the linkup to made smoothly or force the Germans to commit major formations to the area. This sounds like a very good development for Rusty, esp. re Carentan and a link up. It is SO much nicer to be able to place pressure from BOTH directions for this, and the Ger. 91st Inf. will be sorely pressed here. There is a nice strip of clear coast for the 90th to move northward towards Cherbourg, though it should not be threatened with capture for some time. I am very interested to see what the Ger. player does with the Pz Lehr this time. He last tried to wedge it between Omah-Utah, and was forced back, with his center in bad shape. If he does not lose the 352nd again, he can force the US to do more attacking in Bocage -- it doubles the losses to attacking armor, and should not be given up without a fight if possible. Omaha: One bloody repulse by a strongpoint, an evil dieroll by a coastal gun, and the disruption of an HQ resulted in a solid landing, but with 1 Inf. badly chewed up and 29 Inf out of it for the moment. The loss of a BH here means 12 instead of 15 stacking points(sp) per turn (1 Batallion INF = 3sp, 1 Batallion Armor = 2sp), but this is still a good result. Losing 1 BH is ok -- losing 2 ` hurts bad. The linkup with the British is made, and the advent of 2 Arm. on the 8th will open up some options very nicely. The 12-3-8 corps artillery >survived this time, too, which always brings sunshine to the US day. An early linkup! This does sound good. So, what are the odds of 12 attacking points arty. vs. a Flak Unit of defense 2? :) British: Here's where the Germans did best this time. 6AB HQ was defensive fired to death in due course, and this time it was the British player who paid for putting an HQ in harm's way when 50 INf. HQ was taken out. Whoa! This is a costly loss for the Br., as the 50th is a good, up front Div! It lands at Gold Beach, which is closest to the US, and is usually the one I use to link up with the US, and/or push towards the 'Bayeux Gap'. What Br. Div did you link up with? It will be some time before the British can reorganize to take full advantage of his available assets. The Orne bridgehead is not yet under attack, but it remains to be seen what the German intentions are in this sector. 21 Pz has closed up on Caen, as is to be expected. With both the 50th div. and as critically, the 6AB HQ outta play, the Orne bridgehead should be placed under heavy German attack, despite the poss. disruption of Br. Naval Gunfire. This is even more impt. if the Ger. is playing for the middle-game pin, which may be their best move. It's nice the US is in good shape, as I'd hate to lose the 50th AND have the them in a bad fix at Omaha.... What we learned from last time: The Germans seem to have developed a healthy respect for the difficulties of operating under the guns of the Allied naval forces. They have not tried to hold any coastal hexes, and already I can see them figuring out where to set up the line back out of naval range. Allied Naval Gunfire can wreck havoc on the Ger., esp. if they try to attack (it disrupts, and you simply cannot attack disrupted). I try to give the Allies a few "choice" targets in front of Caen for Naval Fire -- at least until I reduce the Orne bridgehead. (This is on/near the coast and subject to Allied Naval Gunfire). If they have nothing else to fire out, where will the guns be targeted? We also have learned some of the nuances of the defensive fire phase. By saving as much artillery as possible for defensive fire, the Allies can force the Germans to disengage. Since it's so hard to get good ground combat odds, using lots of artillery to bump up one column is a waste of resources, when the same, say, 13 factors (a US divisional artillery complement) can threaten several weak units in defensive fire at no risk to Allied units. The Germans have shown no inclination to get adjacent to our units with 30 or 40 factors of artillery hanging around. A good point. Though called "defensive fire" it can blast holes for future offensive operations, and keep the enemy on his toes. He needs to keep back his armor so that he it can't be fired upon, and have flexability on where to defend. (Can't arty. fire on a unit unless you have a unit adj. to it). Also, in the previous game I tended to stack armor with infantry to get the combined arms bonus on defense. But the mech units which aren't actually spearheading an assault need to be back off the line so as to respond to German threats in the mech move phase.... If all goes well, it will be the Ger. player who has to make this call. The trick is to force the Ger. to keep HIS armor off the line, and force HIM to respond in the Mech. phase -- you can set up attacks of opportunity, whereby if he cannot cover all INF with armor/arty. he has to choose what to defend. Then, hit the "unprotected" unit with a favorable CAM, even if it is not the exact hex/area you like. Given losses like this, the area can eventually open on that sector. This should be a fun one. We have a much better idea this time of what units can and can't do, so we can concentrate on manipulating the very subtle game mechanics over the long-term. That is what makes this game SO much fun. There is nothing like having "the rules" of a game down and understanding its system so that you can concentrate on tactics, strategy, etc. And you get the basics down quickly and they get ingrained because you USE and play with the rules so many times, they become second nature. It is at this point you are truly wargaming. Thanks for the update, and I look forward to the next, Stan