David Mignerey - Jun 21, 2011 8:05 pm (#5863 Total: 5945) Praised be Jesus Christ Consim Expo / Origins I am one of the old farts who go to Tempe yearly. Bea and I first go to Denver to visit Family. From there a car load of gamers makes the 15 hour trek to Tempe. After a long cold Ohio winter the 100 + degrees and sun is welcome. The gaming is focused and highly competitive while maintaining a (usually) friendly environment. With three to a room the cost runs about $300 to $400 for the room plus meals and game purchases. Well worth the cost for a once-a-year splurge. The advantage of Origins is sleeping in my own bed, and of course, the outstanding work done by CABS and that Purveyor of Hope and Change...Bud Sauer. George Sauer III - Jun 22, 2011 7:22 am (#5864 Total: 5945) Columbus Area Boardgaming Society - http://www.buckeyeboardgamers.org Welcome back Dave - see you later today !!! Brant Guillory - Jun 24, 2011 10:42 pm (#5867 Total: 5945) In the event of a nuclear meltdown, I'll be gone fission So far, I've counted 9 wargame companies in the exhibit hall... not bad There's probably someone I've missed, but I've been bunkered in the War College with only occasional forays into the exhibit hall thus far. Lock'n'Load MMP Decision ATO Ferkin/Columbia Clash of Arms Collins Epic Wargames Grognard Simulations Worthington Games And yes, all of these are *real* wargame companies... Jason Pipes - Jun 25, 2011 2:58 am (#5868 Total: 5945) No compromise with traitors, and no argument but the cannon's mouth Does anyone actually play anything by Collins Epic Wargames? Spent Wed, Thur, Fri at Origins. Left for home Fri early evening. Made a number of passes through the board game area while I was on site but didn't see very many wargames being played. I did note 3-4 monster games being played which was nice. Noted a few CSW folks playing some wargames (Mike Reed and his soon for example) but not a lot else. The dealer area was pretty good this year. Made some nice buys in the auction though it too was way down from years past. Mike Galandiuk - Jun 25, 2011 7:30 am (#5869 Total: 5945) North Coast Gamers Alliance (NGA) Origins I played 5 scenarios of Fighting Formations, Karelia44, and White Star Rising at Origins, so far. Mark Pitcavage - Jun 25, 2011 1:13 pm (#5870 Total: 5945) time time said old king tut is something i ain t got anything but At least nine ASL scenarios, probably more, were played at Origins this year during the limited time I was there to see it. I also saw people playing a number of other wargames. Matt Boehland - Jun 25, 2011 8:04 pm (#5871 Total: 5945) Nobody told me there'd be days like these There's OTHER wargames? Mike Welsh - Jun 25, 2011 9:32 pm (#5872 Total: 5945) But it's all...right now, in fact it's a gas! I did manage to introduce two new players to No Retreat!, went to some good seminars, shopping was excellent as usual. -Mike Jeff Petraska - Jun 25, 2011 9:37 pm (#5873 Total: 5945) Don't confuse "unpredictable" with "random". There's nothing truly random in this world. >Does anyone actually play anything by Collins Epic Wargames? Not yet, but after learning about their existence at Origins this year and getting a demo of their Spearpoint 1943 card game, I intend to buy a copy shortly. I should have bought a copy while I was there (on Friday, for only one day), because now I have non-buyer's regret. Brant Guillory - Jun 25, 2011 10:09 pm (#5874 Total: 5945) In the event of a nuclear meltdown, I'll be gone fission Fantastic gaming today at the Origins War College. The Decisive Action game went well, even with some challenges, and the Persian Incursion game was better than we remotely expected. Having Larry Bond show up to see what we're doing just added to the pressure but it all worked out very well in the end. Too bad we won't be able to do any of this next year b/c of the date change. Brant Guillory - Jun 25, 2011 11:15 pm (#5876 Total: 5945) In the event of a nuclear meltdown, I'll be gone fission >Does anyone actually play anything by Collins Epic Wargames? They're here, they're working hard, and they're doing their best to expand the hobby. That's worth some support. Once upon a time no one played SPI wargames. Have you ever *tried* any of Collins' games? Maybe you should. I realize that's not an inherently snarky course of action, but maybe a change of pace would be a good thing. Jason Pipes - Jun 26, 2011 11:47 am (#5877 Total: 5945) No compromise with traitors, and no argument but the cannon's mouth I've looked at their games extensively and wasn't impressed with anything they had to offer. It seemed like a very odd mix of game systems, ideas, and modes of play. Wasn't sure what it was they were trying to do. That said your comment is certainly appropriate Brant, they are trying to expand the hobby and there is something to be said for that. Glad to hear there was more actual wargaming going on Sat. Thur and Fri it was pretty much a sea of euros with a handful of wargames. Mike Galandiuk - Jun 26, 2011 12:51 pm (#5878 Total: 5945) North Coast Gamers Alliance (NGA) Origins I had a great time at Origins playing war games is year. Thanks CABS. You do a great job. I am looking forward to the Buckeye Game Fest. Joe Steadman - Jun 26, 2011 10:37 pm (#5879 Total: 5945) On an ASL kick I had a blast! Thanks CABS Peter Blitstein - Jun 27, 2011 8:30 am (#5880 Total: 5945) Appleton, Wisconsin D itto that. Two games of Wilderness War as the French, both of which I lost. Plus others. David March - Jun 27, 2011 9:32 am (#5881 Total: 5945) World at War/ATO Contributor I wasnt able to play as many wargames as I wanted do to other commitments. But I did get in a game of Luftwaffe, one a NSDM game, played the historical Solomons campaign and watched us get Coral Sea completed. I managed to get some miniatures gaming done as well. The big one I found was half way from the Board Room to the Minatures room with the Titan Games group. There Blitzkrieg campaign, is 4400 counters and 42 square feet of maps, and 15 miles to the hex. Good to see monster wargaming coming back. Mark Pitcavage - Jun 27, 2011 10:46 am (#5882 Total: 5945) time time said old king tut is something i ain t got anything but What game is that? Jason Pipes - Jun 27, 2011 10:50 am (#5883 Total: 5945) No compromise with traitors, and no argument but the cannon's mouth The game that has been on demo at Origins the past two years. Most folks who walked around at all saw it set up. Monster Europa-like game. Nice group of guys though with little presence on CSW interestingly enough. Mark Pitcavage - Jun 27, 2011 10:57 am (#5884 Total: 5945) time time said old king tut is something i ain t got anything but You're not talking about the Diffraction Entertainment game, are you? John Kisner - Jun 27, 2011 10:58 am (#5885 Total: 5945) http://web.me.com/kisnerjohn/Site/OCS_Downloads.html It is the faux Europa game from England, Mark. Dave Mignerey was going to check it out and send me a report, but perhaps he didn't stumble across it (too busy playing games). Mark Pitcavage - Jun 27, 2011 11:00 am (#5886 Total: 5945) time time said old king tut is something i ain t got anything but Yes, that is not "Titan Games," that is Diffraction Entertainment, the Europa rip-off people. Jason Pipes - Jun 27, 2011 11:02 am (#5887 Total: 5945) No compromise with traitors, and no argument but the cannon's mouth Since Europa is basically defunct and many of the games in that series are unplayable, how are they being rip-offs? Martin Sample - Jun 27, 2011 11:10 am (#5888 Total: 5945) Sometimes I wish we could just hit 'em over the head, rob 'em, and throw their bodies in the creek. Reading this post: Tom Johnson, "Europa Series (GR/D)" #5844, 29 Jun 2010 11:15 pm It is hard to look at Diffraction without some level of distaste. Cory Manka was one of the principals of HMS/GRD and from what little I have read, pretty much drove a financial dagger into that entity from which they haven't recovered. Jason Pipes - Jun 27, 2011 11:17 am (#5889 Total: 5945) No compromise with traitors, and no argument but the cannon's mouth Interesting, though that is only one side in the legal fight. Sounds to me like it might be worth picking up a copy of the game. If they all get destroyed due to some court ruling they will become interesting collector pieces! Mark Pitcavage - Jun 27, 2011 11:27 am (#5890 Total: 5945) time time said old king tut is something i ain t got anything but None of the games in the Europa series are unplayable. I presume you are just riding some hobbyhorse or another with that comment. Jason Pipes - Jun 27, 2011 11:38 am (#5891 Total: 5945) No compromise with traitors, and no argument but the cannon's mouth You know what they say when you presume. Peter Blitstein - Jun 27, 2011 11:59 am (#5892 Total: 5945) Appleton, Wisconsin I spoke to the Diffraction guys last year. They were supposed to have something to sell by now, but as far as I can tell they don't. Enthusiastic, perhaps overly so. Jason Pipes - Jun 27, 2011 12:16 pm (#5893 Total: 5945) No compromise with traitors, and no argument but the cannon's mouth Yeah when I talked with them last year they said they were waiting on the game to arrive at the show so they could sell a few copies. I recall the price was something like $350. They did indeed seem excited about the system but it was also clear there were a ton of rules issues to be worked out. Peter Stein - Jun 27, 2011 1:33 pm (#5894 Total: 5945) Dice going my way, must be June. >Since Europa is basically defunct and many of the games in that series are unplayable, how are they being rip-offs? Based on discussions I heard, Jason's hardly the only one who thought this. Well not the unplayable part (and I wouldn't know since I never played it). George Sauer III - Jun 27, 2011 1:36 pm (#5895 Total: 5945) Columbus Area Boardgaming Society - http://www.buckeyeboardgamers.org >I wouldn't know since I never played it I have not played EUROPA either - I've play DNO ... does that count ??? It was a great summer when I played that and as the RUSSIANS just destroyed the GERMANS. So much so that the German player after having a few of his stacks of pretty armor mauled threw the die against the wall and shattered it !!! Great times in Bud's Basement!!! Bruce Reiff - Jun 27, 2011 1:46 pm (#5896 Total: 5945) "We're going to start calling them the Itty Bitty East" - Charles Barkley 3-20-11 >I have not played EUROPA either - I've play DNO ... does that count ??? It was a great summer when I played that and as the RUSSIANS just destroyed the GERMANS. So much so that the German player after having a few of his stacks of pretty armor mauled threw the die against the wall and shattered it !!! I bet I can guess who that was!!!!! Mike Reed - Jun 27, 2011 1:51 pm (#5897 Total: 5945) Mysterious Race Car Driver. Secret Agent Man. Grognard. I recall talking to the Scottish fellow in the convention hall late Saturday night. He mentioned that the whole 'Blitzkrieg' package (Poland, France, etc.) was soon to be out, IIRC, somewhere in the $350-450 range. The whole mapset set up was rather interesting looking. Nice graphics (very 'green') - then again, that was the strongpoint of FGA, so one must never judge by graphics alone. Counters looked nice, as well as some of the description of certain systems. Not my cup of tea, so I was more just chatting up than seriously considering, but it does look like there was considerable work gone into it. Knowing nothing about the whole Europa 'backstory', I'm not going to comment on that. FWIW, I did see the 'Balkan Fire' set on sale, list for $150 - and some folks eagerly playing it late Saturday night. Whether those were the playtesters, or just some conscripted folks, they did look like they were having fun. The other odd duck I did see at the con was 'Grognard Simulations'. Nice chap, who had a lot of tactical-level (i.e. monster-big) games on various parts of Kursk, plus some other projects. Rather detailed, looked like a lot of work was put into it, but in converse to the above, rather DTP-level graphics. Sort of what you'd expect of a self-published job back in the 80s or 90s...and that was enough of a turn-off to not to wish to delve further. I know that the CABS folks had one of the Kursk games in the library (and I looked at that a bit further), don't recall whether anyone set it up much less played it. I hope the guy didn't lose his shirt on the booth costs there... An interesting 'Battle of Britain' air war game being demoed there, sort of miniatures put on a hex-map...thinking about the level of 'Wings of War', with some additional chrome thrown in. Nice artwork, nice graphics, nice guys to sit around and chat with, though I never got around to actually getting to play or a demo (each time they asked, I was having to go get stuff for my son and/or wife - never got back). My 2 cents on that... Mark Pitcavage - Jun 27, 2011 1:58 pm (#5898 Total: 5945) time time said old king tut is something i ain t got anything but >I spoke to the Diffraction guys last year. They were supposed to have something to sell by now, but as far as I can tell they don't. Enthusiastic, perhaps overly so. Yes, but judging by their website, their lack of products has not at all hindered them from accepting money for non-existent games. Peter Blitstein - Jun 27, 2011 2:53 pm (#5901 Total: 5945) Appleton, Wisconsin >I recall talking to the Scottish fellow in the convention hall late Saturday night. He mentioned that the whole 'Blitzkrieg' package (Poland, France, etc.) was soon to be out, IIRC, somewhere in the $350-450 range. The whole mapset set up was rather interesting looking. Nice graphics (very 'green') - then again, that was the strongpoint of FGA, so one must never judge by graphics alone. I had the same conversation with him last year. >The other odd duck I did see at the con was 'Grognard Simulations'. Yeah, I would have taken a flyer on one if they weren't all something like $80. Sounded interesting. Martin Sample - Jun 27, 2011 3:11 pm (#5902 Total: 5945) Sometimes I wish we could just hit 'em over the head, rob 'em, and throw their bodies in the creek. I saw the Grognard Sims stuff out at CSW Expo and someone's description upthread was spot on - looked like DTP from about 15 years ago. Not necessarily bad quality, but pretty dated looking. John Kisner - Jun 27, 2011 3:51 pm (#5903 Total: 5945) http://web.me.com/kisnerjohn/Site/OCS_Downloads.html The Blitzkrieg game came out last year. The Balkan game is supposed to start shipping in July. The Blitzkrieg game has "bad counters" (not sure of the exact problem), and these are to be reprinted later this year. I am interested in the series, which seems designed to be linked together in what we might as well call Grand Europa style. I am equally bothered by both the pricing and the possibility that the work of Tom Johnson was appropriated via by the evil Mr M. Joe Youst - Jun 27, 2011 8:35 pm (#5904 Total: 5945) up next: Hurtgen: Hell's Forest (also Borodino) Martin, I talked with Chris Fasoula (Grognard Games) about his graphics. Might help him out in that regard down the line. We'll see. Rick Billings - Jun 28, 2011 12:13 am (#5905 Total: 5945) Provo, Utah sightings? Did anyone give the BULL RUN game from Mayfair a try? if so, what did you think? Was Strike of the Eagle available for sale or being shown off from/by Academy? How about either of the CONFLICT OF ARMS gamettes (Guadalcanal, or D=Day) available or at least being previewed? Did they have their Gettysburg game to show off? if so, how close is it? Did Worthington have BAND OF BROTHERS, BULL RUN, or CRETE/MARKET GARDEN being shown off? Any surprise showing from COA, LNLP, or DG? Did DG have any of their computer games available? How about their Global War redesign? thanks for humoring me. Work schedule kept me away. Mike Galandiuk - Jun 28, 2011 7:52 am (#5906 Total: 5945) North Coast Gamers Alliance (NGA) Strike of the Eagle was for sale. Brant Guillory - Jun 28, 2011 8:07 am (#5907 Total: 5945) In the event of a nuclear meltdown, I'll be gone fission >Any surprise showing from COA, LNLP, or DG? LNLP had the proof copy of Heroes of the Gap on the table. The production companies are on a "slow boat from China", as Janice put it. HotG wasn't a surprise, as they've been talking about it for a year, but it was nice to see it on the table. Martin Sample - Jun 28, 2011 9:19 am (#5908 Total: 5945) Sometimes I wish we could just hit 'em over the head, rob 'em, and throw their bodies in the creek. I read over on BGG that they were running demos for Strike of the Eagle. I was somewhat surprised to see an estimated playing time of 6-8 hours for the full campaign. Mike Welsh - Jun 28, 2011 10:19 am (#5909 Total: 5945) But it's all...right now, in fact it's a gas! I watched two games of Mayfair's "Bull Run" and played one other. Not hopeless, I'd give it a "5" on the old 1-10 scale. They only had a demo version at the con, so can't comment on the graphics, but gameplay is decent. Units are not ID'ed, as you might expect, near as I can tell they're two regiments to the piece (29 Union infantry to 25 Confederate, which is pretty close to the correct ratio of forces. It just so happened that I had the OOB for it on me, so I checked). Each side also has two artillery units, which makes sense considering how little there was of it there. I had just finished reading "Donnybrook" so definitely wanted to see this, and would've bought a copy had they had one available, until I actually played it... Each side also gets their own deck of cards, which give you various bonuses, but they don't drive the game like a CDG. However, when you are prompted to draw a card from your deck and you are out of them, the game ends at that point and victory is assessed. (And you MUST draw a card when the system prompts you to do so.) Each side alternates activations, which consists of rolling a set number of dice (4 Union, 3 Confederate) against a table to see what kind of actions you get to make. A one means "Draw a card", two and three "Fire your artillery unit(s)", four and five "take a move action", and six is a "leader action" which may be any one of the above, but only in the space where your leader is located (each side gets one). Victory conditions are, if the Union take and hold both Centreville (which they start the game with) and Manassas Junction, they win, otherwise, they lose. The Rebs will win a sudden-death victory if they do the same and hold them at the end of a Union turn. There is also the possibility of a "rout", more on that later. The map is area movement, terrain does matter. A move action will allow you to move two units across an area boundary, three if it's along the Warrenton Pike, and only one when crossing Bull Run at any place except the Stone Bridge or Sudley's Ford. There are a few hills involved, Henry House being a major one, which gives artillery a bonus if infantry moves into the space to assault. Units are two-steps to a counter, a hit flips the unit to it's back side, a second hit kills it. Combat is done in one of two ways, if you roll a two or three (or play certain cards), artillery may fire into an adjacent space by rolling a die per activation, sixes hit. Or, if infantry moves into an enemy held space, the defender rolls two dice per unit, fives and sixes hit (fours also if it's artillery on a hill), then surviving attackers fire, if the attacker doesn't clear the space, he must retreat back to where the attack came from. Since combat is resolved after each move, you cannot effectively attack the same space from two or more spaces, you have to make one attack, resolve it, then attack with a different move action. And yes, you could move the same troops. Each hit is rerolled, a 1-3 is a retreat, a 4-6 flips (or kills, if the unit was already flipped) a unit. There is no way, once flipped, a unit can be rallied. The setup is as of early morning the day of the battle, with the Union right hook just getting to the Sudley Ford. This means they're strung out in line of march. The Confederate left is rather lightly held, but there is an artillery unit already on Henry House Hill at the beginning of the game, which is dubious. The dice roll activation system is good and bad, if you roll lots of ones, you are forced to draw cards, which means the game will end early, if you don't roll fours and fives, you won't move much. This will kill you, particularly if you're the Union. In the game I played, my esteemed opponent decided that, since casualties don't matter, he would throw as many troops into a meatgrinder as possible by attacking across Bull Run downstream by Blackburn's Ford and tying down the Union left to keep my right from moving. With all those troops strung out moving towards Sudley, the Rebs outnumbered me at the point of contact. It did not help matters that I rolled a raft of ones, twos and threes, at game end I still had a few units on the road to Sudley's Ford. I did manage to storm Henry House Hill and turn the Rebs' left, and got to within a space of Manassas Junction, but time ran out on me. And while the "Butcher's Bill" was in my favor, that only matters if you can roll a "rout". There are three cards in the Union deck (4 in the Rebs), that lets you roll 2d6, and if you roll less than or equal to the number of enemy casualties, his army routs and you win. He had lost 6 units total, so all I needed to do was roll a 2-6 once out of three times. Nope. Would I buy the game? There's definitely a good game in there someplace, and you have to take your hat off whenever you see a Euro with a bibliography in it, but I'm still on the fence. It does capture the frustration of command control nicely, but I'm thinking the Victory Conditions need work, and some method of moving units outside of the activation system is necessary. Something along the lines of, "give them an objective, and they'll move towards it in fits and starts until they get there or are told to do otherwise" would do the trick. Essentially those units sent on the flank march around the Confederate left are frozen in time, which bothers me. Also, I played in or saw three games, all Confederate victories, so there may be a play balance issue as well. Mark Pitcavage - Jun 28, 2011 10:37 am (#5910 Total: 5945) time time said old king tut is something i ain t got anything but As far as I am concerned, Diffraction Entertainment is just another sad chapter in the demise of what was once a storied game series. Darin Leviloff - Jun 28, 2011 12:51 pm (#5911 Total: 5945) Designer of Soviet Dawn and Israeli Independence. Ottoman Sunset now available from VPG. Well, it's not as sad as "Up Front". Something someday is going to be released in the system. My money is on Diffraction to be the someones to do it. Regardless of the history of a system's diminishment, they are awfully nice and enthusiastic fellows. If they can produce a real thing that puts them ahead of anyone not producing anything. Big "if" though. Martin Sample - Jun 28, 2011 12:55 pm (#5912 Total: 5945) Sometimes I wish we could just hit 'em over the head, rob 'em, and throw their bodies in the creek. Up Front may be sad, but it didn't involve multiple business entities being dragged down and from what little I know, no lawsuits over it. Darin Leviloff - Jun 28, 2011 12:58 pm (#5913 Total: 5945) Designer of Soviet Dawn and Israeli Independence. Ottoman Sunset now available from VPG. Take it from me, there are two sides to every lawsuit. Anyways, I'm not an investor or copyright holder- I am a potential consumer. The issue that matters is whether a product exists, whether it is quality, and whether it is priced right for its value. In terms of Europa, the answers right now are pretty negative and I look with favor of anyone who is willing to address any of those issues. Rick Billings - Jun 28, 2011 7:42 pm (#5914 Total: 5945) Provo, Utah Thank you! Thanks for the "Sightings" feedback especially the detailed report on Wallace's Bull Run by Mike that was awesome!! -R Kevin Rohrer - Jun 29, 2011 1:00 am (#5915 Total: 5945) Pre-order the best 4-player wargame ever made: Angola by MMP Any word on the release of TK2 and the Pacific version? Peter Blitstein - Jun 29, 2011 6:58 am (#5916 Total: 5945) Appleton, Wisconsin They were available at the show. Mike Welsh - Jun 29, 2011 8:50 am (#5917 Total: 5945) But it's all...right now, in fact it's a gas! "Any word on the release of TK2 and the Pacific version?" Picked them both up, and they look pretty good to me, only have skimmed over them so far. Almost had a coronary when opening Dai Senso, though. Callie had her son open it to check components before they sold it, everything looked OK to him, so I took it and went on. Later, when I started going thru it, I only saw the western map, but no eastern! Freaked me out until I cut the shrink on the package holding the rules, counters, scenario books, etc. and saw the east map folded up in there. Dunno what they were thinking, but it's OK, I guess. Otherwise, looks pretty good. Strangely enough, the maps in TK were both folded as normal, just fits in the box. Peter Blitstein - Jun 29, 2011 9:49 am (#5918 Total: 5945) Appleton, Wisconsin I was so tempted to get them, but decided to wait until further reports come in. Leeland Krueger - Jun 29, 2011 1:18 pm (#5919 Total: 5945) “Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.” - Conan - The Tower of the Elephant I am waiting to hear back on them as well. Darin Leviloff - Jun 29, 2011 2:48 pm (#5920 Total: 5945) Designer of Soviet Dawn and Israeli Independence. Ottoman Sunset now available from VPG. I remember once I bought a used copy of WW2:ETO expanded edition and found to my dismay it was missing the Western map. I had to monkey up the Western map from the 1985 edition, using a Fire and Movement review as a guidepost. Fortunately, AETO came out some years later and solved the problem in a sense (adding level upon level of complexity, though). Mike, tell us how you like the games. I've got some royalty "funny money" coming in and have some choices to make on allocation. David March - Jun 29, 2011 4:40 pm (#5921 Total: 5945) World at War/ATO Contributor Diffraction Entertainment --Thanks, I thought I took one of their cards, but may have left it in the hotel room. None of the games in the Europa series are unplayable. --Well…Try selling that line to the boys on Europa forum. Waste in the Dessert, is a popular topic. Also The Great War series is only playable after 50 pages of Errata. They were supposed to have something to sell by now --They had both there Blitzkrieg available along with Balkan Fury. 450 US for the first, and 200 for the latter. --As for TK, I have been clipping the counters for the last two days. Sadly I have no space to do the 2 Map games at home. I might get something setup at the Club on Friday and get the boys together. We have been waiting for years for this DM Mark Pitcavage - Jun 29, 2011 6:02 pm (#5922 Total: 5945) time time said old king tut is something i ain t got anything but When did they have Balkan Fury "available" at Origins? Even on their own website they say they were only taking orders at Origins and would not have any actual copies. Mark Pitcavage - Jun 29, 2011 6:03 pm (#5923 Total: 5945) time time said old king tut is something i ain t got anything but > --Well…Try selling that line to the boys on Europa forum. Waste in the Dessert, is a popular topic. Also The Great War series is only playable after 50 pages of Errata. Both War in the Desert and the Great War games are playable. David Stokes - Jun 30, 2011 9:49 am (#5924 Total: 5945) While I certainly can't deny that there are legitimate criticisms that can be made about Europa games, being unplayable isn't one of them, unless you can't handle any complexity much beyond, say, Avalon Hill classics. Mark Pitcavage - Jun 30, 2011 10:50 am (#5925 Total: 5945) time time said old king tut is something i ain t got anything but The notion that the complexity of Europa games, even early Europa games, is comparable to the complexity of Avalon Hill classics is rather beyond me. Even early Europa games had some complex systems, such as the air rules. Latter Europa games like Second Front were very complex by any measure, with some of the Europa and Glory games, such as For Whom the Bell Tolls and War of Resistance adding further layers of complexity due to extended political rules. And the World War I games are the most complex of all. Maybe what you mean is that a lot of the basic rules, such as for ground unit movement and combat (aside from armor effects) are fairly conventional. David Stokes - Jun 30, 2011 1:54 pm (#5926 Total: 5945) That's probably a better way to put it. George Sauer III - Jun 30, 2011 9:20 pm (#5927 Total: 5945) olumbus Area Boardgaming Society - http://www.buckeyeboardgamers.org Notes from Origins website ... We know everyone is interested in numbers. This year, we sold 101 more full badges than last year. In 2010 we sold 6,444 full badges, and 2011 we sold 6,545. This is a 1.5% increase. We sold 732 more day passes than last year. In 2010 we sold 4225, and in 2011 we sold 4957 day passes, a gain of 17.3%. Overall our attendance increased by 833 attendees. With 10,669 attendees in 2010 and 11,502 people attending the show in 2011, that gives us an overall increase of 7.8% for 2011. Brant Guillory - Jun 30, 2011 9:30 pm (#5928 Total: 5945) In the event of a nuclear meltdown, I'll be gone fission Bud - do those numbers include volunteers or other folks who had comp'ed badges for working at Origins? Or the kids' badges? For instance - mine was comp'ed b/c of the hours I was running games at the OWC, and my son's was free b/c he's still 8 this year. That's 2 more people that might not be in those totals if they're only counting sales. Just wondering what the total attendance was... Peter Stein - Jun 30, 2011 10:13 pm (#5929 Total: 5945) Dice going my way, must be June. I amazed you're getting that much. Conventions that size usually give you some sort of "days attended" number i.e. I count as 5 because I bought a badge for the whole time. Bruce Reiff - Jun 30, 2011 10:17 pm (#5930 Total: 5945) "We're going to start calling them the Itty Bitty East" - Charles Barkley 3-20-11 Brant, I'd bet that they still "sold" them to you. But I could be wrong. Brant Guillory - Jun 30, 2011 10:47 pm (#5931 Total: 5945) In the event of a nuclear meltdown, I'll be gone fission Could be - that's why I'm asking Kevin Rohrer - Jul 1, 2011 1:23 am (#5932 Total: 5945) Pre-order the best 4-player wargame ever made: Angola by MMP >With 10,669 attendees in 2010 and 11,502 people attending the show in 2011, Which is less than Origins used to draw. I expect attendance to drop at least 40% from this year's numbers. I wonder how GAMA will realize their $100,000 from 6000-attendees? The title GAMAtards certainly fits them. I wouldn't be surprised if they try and shoehorn everyone into one big room. Damian Mastrangelo - Jul 1, 2011 2:14 am (#5933 Total: 5945) Please give it a rest >Kevin Rohrer - Jul 1, 2011 1:23 am (#5932 Total: 5932) With 10,669 attendees in 2010 and 11,502 people attending the show in 2011, Which is less than Origins used to draw. I expect attendance to drop at least 40% from this year's numbers. I wonder how GAMA will realize their $100,000 from 6000-attendees? The title GAMAtards certainly fits them. I wouldn't be surprised if they try and shoehorn everyone into one big room.>> After hearing your complaints about Origins for the last couple of years, I'm going to guess that you're even now preparing your own gaming convention, drawing upon your vast store of experience in running large gaming conventions. I expect it will draw somewhere over 100,000 attendees and will be exactly what everyone wants it to be. Of course, if it isn't run EXACTLY the way I would run it, I will be on here to complain loudly and constantly about what an idiot you are. Tommy Röhs - Jul 1, 2011 11:36 am (#5934 Total: 5945) >Which is less than Origins used to draw. I expect attendance to drop at least 40% from this year's numbers. I wonder how GAMA will realize their $100,000 from 6000-attendees? The title GAMAtards certainly fits them. >I wouldn't be surprised if they try and shoehorn everyone into one big room Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves. Peter Stein - Jul 1, 2011 12:14 pm (#5935 Total: 5945) Dice going my way, must be June. Not that I agree with him, but if you look at BGG it's not like Kevin is the only one saying this. Far from it. Personally I think it's more like a 10-20% drop. Even GAMA is expecting a drop. Martin Sample - Jul 1, 2011 12:17 pm (#5936 Total: 5945) Sometimes I wish we could just hit 'em over the head, rob 'em, and throw their bodies in the creek. What's funny is that every year GAMA says ticket sales grow, yet people that go year after year say otherwise. I wonder how much longer they can spin doctor things. Heavenly Robin G - Jul 1, 2011 12:51 pm (#5937 Total: 5945) "the beast that triumphantly kills the man remains the beast....the man being killed by the beast retains to his last breath his strength of spirit, clarity of thought, and passionate love" - Vasily Grossman Given that Kevin's been attending for years and always organizes a whole slew of multiplayer games in the War/Board Room, I think he has every right to be pissed about the changes and to express his feelings about it. Robin Mike Zehnal - Jul 1, 2011 4:27 pm (#5938 Total: 5945) 2010 Trainer of Pete "Kidney Bean" Stein - Friendly, nah, but he sure can wave! I had a Great Time at Origins - ask me how My only complaint is I walked in some areas where the temperature was set at 72 degrees when they know I prefer 68.5 degrees. I wrote this on my name badge. I don't think Kevin was at Origins this year and I don't think his message is very effective. But it is Kevin and I understand his gripes. Forums lead to bitching and that is what we have here. I'll take the blemishes with the overall enjoyable show experience I had with my children. Mark Pitcavage - Jul 1, 2011 7:54 pm (#5939 Total: 5945) time time said old king tut is something i ain t got anything but All I'll say is that it was a bigass gaming convention to me, and I don't think crowds were such that anybody can really complain about it. Jason Pipes - Jul 1, 2011 10:22 pm (#5940 Total: 5945) No compromise with traitors, and no argument but the cannon's mouth Unless the crowds you were looking for were related to wargaming. Kevin Rohrer - Jul 2, 2011 12:02 am (#5941 Total: 5945) Pre-order the best 4-player wargame ever made: Angola by MMP "Damian Mastrangelo" No need to defend me from a Troll, guys, but thanx anyway. And I will continue to cuss and discuss anything I see fit. PC Police need to go elsewhere and practice their Internet Nazi tactics. Kevin Rohrer - Jul 2, 2011 12:12 am (#5942 Total: 5945) Pre-order the best 4-player wargame ever made: Angola by MMP >Given that Kevin's been attending for years and always organizes a whole slew of multiplayer games in the War/Board Room, I think he has every right to be pissed about the changes and to express his feelings about it. The changes will have minimal effect on me, even though the new dates conflict w/ another activity I had planned to attend. I just hate to see an organization that is supposed to represent and support its members purposely screw them and us gamers, just so they can increase their bottom line. GAMA isn't doing the hobby any good by holding a con when many of its past and future attendees can't come. You can't grow a hobby by excluding people from it. Damian Mastrangelo - Jul 2, 2011 12:50 am (#5943 Total: 5945) Constant Complaining >No need to defend me from a Troll, guys, but thanx anyway.>> I don't really see much defense of you here. Look, I don't particularly like the way that the WBC runs their convention. I have attended WBC in the past and enjoyed myself. I will probably attend in the future and enjoy my time there again. I don't spend my time coming onto message boards and bitching about the people who run the WBC and what idiots they are. It happens to be their con, and they can run it as they like. They, like Origins, are a non-profit organization, so many of the people involved are giving their time and effort for very little compensation. I'm sorry you can't enjoy yourself at Origins and choose instead to come on here and throw temper tantrums and attack GAMA at every turn. Maybe someone at GAMA did some horrible thing to you in the past, I don't know. But I don't believe the definition of a "Troll" is someone who calls out a poster for saying the same negative things over and over again. Origins is not your convention, and its not my convention. It is GAMA's to run as they see fit. So is the WBC. You say that GAMA is changing the dates of Origins for purely profit purposes. Perhaps you have some inside information that the rest of us don't, as I haven't seen that particular fact listed anywhere. I understand frustration at the way conventions are run. As I said earlier, I think the WBC is "guilty" of excluding people from their con by limiting the number of events that are scheduled despite having the room for more events that could draw more attendees. However, I also understand that Don Greenwood and his crew are running things the way they feel is best, and for me to continually complain about it is useless. I can choose to attend or not based on whether I feel I will get enough enjoyment from the experience to justify the cost. I'm not going to come on here and call the WBC board names and question their motives. I just don't see how that is in any way a productive activity. David Stokes - Jul 2, 2011 4:26 am (#5944 Total: 5945) Where did he say that they were changing the date purely for profit reasons? I missed that. At any rate, that sounds like a legitimate business decision. For me personally, it doesn't matter--I can take my vacation pretty much any time of the year, and at this point, I don't have any kids in school, so that's not a problem. But I think that anyone with school-age children who want to attend has a legit beef with this decision, because in many (most?) places, school won't be out yet. As you say, GAMA has the right to schedule it how they please; I just don't see how having it that early is in their own best interests, but that's not my problem. Kevin Rohrer - Jul 2, 2011 3:49 pm (#5945 Total: 5945) Pre-order the best 4-player wargame ever made: Angola by MMP Don't Feed the Trolls >I don't really see much defense of you here. There's a lot you don't see.