************ Topic 43 Mon Sep 16, 1991 DIPLOMACY-1 at 20:27 EDT Sub: The Gamers Online support and discussion of products from The Gamers, Inc. 22 new messages. ************ ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 341 Fri Mar 17, 1995 W.ARNSDORF [MARTY] at 07:25 EST Sorry for all the TCS questions. But, can you write op sheets for units deployed on the map that are implemented immediately, similar to pre-game orders in the CWB series? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 342 Fri Mar 17, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 08:37 EST Wig: I haven't had any word on Fedorowicz or further GD books... I don't think Homer would be my choice for a _summer_ spot...we do the plains thing here (-15 in the winter, +102 in the summer with humidity that can't be beat) Dan: Right on :) Waco: Did the Texan's erect a monument to the Dividians yet? Marty: No problem with the questions (I kinda think that is why I'm here...) TCS games start with implemented OP sheets (historical or choice) just like the pre-game orders in the CWB. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 343 Fri Mar 17, 1995 D.BLENNEMANN [DIRK] at 14:00 EST Dean and Dave, Today I noticed a book called "Last Assault 1944 - The Battle of the Bulge re- assessed" by Charles Whiting. The description about the book is strange: "...The author sets out to show that far from being the surprise offensive Eisenhower claimed it to be, it was one of which he was forewarned...The author claims the Supreme Commander deliberately weakened that part of the US front to draw the Germans out of the Siegfried defences." I guess the book is trash. Do you or anybody else know the book? Best, DIRK ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 344 Fri Mar 17, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 15:12 EST Dirk: I don't know of the book you are speaking about, but from the Whiting books I have read, I do have an opinion of the author--and it isn't good. Very _Very_ lightweight stuff... April's Harvest: Unfortunately, I have the first bit of errata (and I went and noticed it myself _after_ release #@&%$...) We were playing the game at a store in Reading PA last weekend and I kept having the feeling that something wasn't right (from the Reb point of view), but couldn't put my finger on it...then some looking through Al Wambold's notes, and some re-reading of Sword's book sent up flares and the lightbulb (finally) went on... The first turn for scenario's 5.1 and 5.4 should be 5:30 am, not 6:30 am. I have no one to blame but myself for this one...our own Marty Arnsdorf tried to point it out to me numerous times during playtesting as he told me the Rebs couldn't get as far as they should in those early turns...I took that and counted the movement points several times (and even had Don check my math to make sure) and I kept getting the right answer, so I left it alone. Pity, the start turn in the playtesting (and final) games didn't match what I had to work with from Al... Well, that news ruined my day, Be gentle, Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 345 Fri Mar 17, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 18:39 EST Dirk, I have not read the new Whiting book either - I make it a point to avoid most Whiting stuff, since my opinion of him conincides with Dean's. However, I have caught wind of this kind of thesis in some other - usually not very good - histories of the battle over the years. It sounds like Whiting has built on that foundation. It seems like there is a segment of modern authorship that isn't happy unless they've found a conspiracy - and this sounds like an addition to that school. If Eisenhower had been so clever as to deliberately set a trap for the Germans, and then spring it as he expected, I imagine he'd have done some bragging about his generalship in some of the subsequent 20 or so years of his life. Any such claim by Whiting would also have to show why such a thing would have been covered up afterwords, as well. Dean, and all other interested parties: Good news - another 7 Days map done! one more to go. All other big ticket projects will have to wait their turn. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 346 Fri Mar 17, 1995 J.STORMES1 [James] at 19:53 EST Back in the summer of 1968, I discovered a wonderful television series called "The Prisoner". It starred Patrick McGoohan as a British secret agent who resigns, only to be kidnapped and imprisoned in a place known as "The Village", where he manfully resists every threat and defeats every trick of his captors to make him reveal his secret. "Why did you resign?" is the central mystery of the series, but there are many others. Now, thanks to The Gamers, one of these many mysteries, the location of "The Village", is solved! Owners of Enemy at the Gates need only locate hex 49.31 on Map B, where they will find a village named--"Village"! ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 347 Fri Mar 17, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 21:34 EST Guys: I got the new OPERATIONS in the mail yesterday. Again, a good job. The annual run-down of the business side of The Gamers and Dean's recap of the last seven years were great. I'd forgotten what a total wasteland wargaming was around 1988. I was in the Navy at the time and there was a game store that I frequented in Norfolk, VA. The best thing in the store was the used game section. It was the only place I ever found anything I wanted to play. That's a far cry from today. I liked the BLOODY ROADS SOUTH article, too. Dave, are you planning to write an article on the Confederate strategy? While I was reading the article, I thought back to my battle with Gerry Palmer at last year's retreat. Gerry retreated the CSA off the map and then re- entered along the Orange Plank Road. I thought I had him when I controlled almost every victory point hex, but, like you say in the article, the USA is a brittle force. Gerry consolidated his forces and slammed into me like a freight train. By the end of the second day, three Corps were totally destroyed and my command situation was so lousy that I decided to retreat, hoping to fight again some other day. A great game. Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 348 Fri Mar 17, 1995 W.GRAVES2 [Wig] at 21:43 EST The only thing I ever got from a Whiting book was the title for "Hunters from the Sky". Wig ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 349 Sat Mar 18, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 00:03 EST Dean - I can't believe that April's Harvest has a mistake. My image of THE GAMERS has been totally blown! BTW, so far the San Jose stores in CA. don't have them in stock. DIRK - Don't you just love revisionist history? If you like reading that, I hear that Oliver Stone is making the movie "NIXON" where he states that Nixon was probably responsible for Kennedy's assassination. UGH! ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 350 Sat Mar 18, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 00:14 EST Don't bother reading anything by Charles Whiting. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 351 Sat Mar 18, 1995 D.BLENNEMANN [DIRK] at 06:58 EST Thanks for the info about the Whiting book! IMO, Dave hits the point with his statement "...there's a segment of modern authorship that isn't happy unless they've found a conspiracy." Best, DIRK ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 352 Sat Mar 18, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 07:36 EST James, Yes, as I'm sure Dean will tell you, now the story can be told... Having revealed one mystery (the location of the "village") we may provide clues to all other questions in later games. Ve Haff our little Vays... Dan, Ideally, I'd like to address strategy issues for a number of games. Also, I'd like to see Gerry's strategic thaughts down on paper, given the success of his unusual strategy. When he withdrew to a single axis, I thought you guys had him too, because then all the Union Power could face only one threat. Fooled me. On Whiting: Glad to see opinion is pretty universally held about this guy. Dirk, I wrongly used a word, however. Where I wrote "..found a conspiracy." I should have said"...manufactured a conspiracy.":) Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 353 Sat Mar 18, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:11 EST Jim: You _just now_ found the Village? S.Cat: The AH shipment should have hit all the distributors yesterday...stores should have 'em before next weekend. I have photographic proof that it _was_ Nixon on the Grassy Knoll...something in the caption confused me...it quotes Tricky Dick as stating "This will get you for making me sweat in that debate Monkey Boy!" (Can't say as I knew Dick had that in him...) :) Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 354 Sat Mar 18, 1995 W.ARNSDORF [MARTY] at 11:22 EST Vindication! Now, I don't feel so bad asking another TCS question. Dean, you might consider assigning an Agent in Charge to me until I get thru these! When writing an OP sheet, can you give units a order that includes movement and defense (or attack)? Such as, "move to point A and establish hasty defense from A to B", or must the move orders be on one Op Sheet and the hasty defense orders on another? Thanks for your answers and patience! Marty ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 355 Sat Mar 18, 1995 M.LOCHTEFEL1 at 11:53 EST Dean A few words of praise! Myself and two friends are playing Enemy At The Gates and are starting Turn 9 on the first scenario. We love the system and the game! Right now, we have those nasty krauts shaking in the city of Stalingrad. We're having alot of fun with the system. Thanks for publishing a great game! Also, we're looking forward to Yom Kippur. We loved Afrika and Ardennes as well as the system. The Standard Combat Series seems to focus more on fun and strategy, in my opinion. Finaaly, thanks for (in my mind) the best game company in terms of customer support. To me, customer service is what makes The Gamers stand out above all the rest. I hope to give you guys more praise in person at Origins '95!!! Mike Lochtefeld P.S. I'm starting to get interested in you CWB Series. Which CWB game would you recommend for someone new to that series to start with? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 356 Sat Mar 18, 1995 F.HOLLANDER [fth] at 12:10 EST I was disappointed by the decision not to run the industry roundup in the latest Operations, and the decision not to put the "stars" on the games in development. Maybe you're a bit tired of all the crap, but I think you're retreating a [little] bit from your previous standards. OTOH, everything else is rosy, and I'm gearing up for a big order. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 357 Sat Mar 18, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 13:45 EST Mike - Whatever you play, don't start with Perryville. Start with Antietam or No better place to die. Thunder if you have enough people. If you like really bloody games, try Barren Victory or Bloody Roads South. Sorry Dean I hate to say that Perryville is at the bottom of my list. I've played it twice using historical rules and I don't think I can ever work up to play the variants. The game is good for a yuk or two though. Hey everybody, I've got a Nixon mask for Halloween last year and it's in great shape. Big nose and all. "I'm not a crook!" ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 358 Sat Mar 18, 1995 J.DUNNAM1 [JRD] at 14:25 EST Perry Wig and I will need to plan something if you come down long enough. What would you prefer? Not much to see at the Mt Carmel Compound but a shack where the old building used to be. Dean No monument to the Davidians (yet), just an ATF marker for the 4 dead agents. Of course the Davidians have had another semi-shootout between the factions fighting for who "owns" the compound land. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 359 Sat Mar 18, 1995 J.KINCAID1 [John] at 15:30 EST ======= To: P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] ======= > Mike - Whatever you play, don't start with Perryville. Start with ..... >...... > Sorry Dean I hate to say that Perryville is at the bottom of my list. > I've played it twice using historical rules and I don't think I can > ever work up to play the variants. The game is good for a yuk or two > though. I don't agree Cat. I played Perryville as my first game of CWB and found it to be a good learning experience. I also played 2 GM'ed games of Perryville and we had a great time. One turned into "trench warfare" along the river, because the CSA decided to play come and get me. The second was more historical in that the CSA attacked across the river got over extended (could not "break" his orders"), General Smith ended up all alone behind the USA. Polks Corps collapsed and Crittenden (sp?) ended up with Perryville. Besides all of that, one good thing is it can show the new player the order system and it's effects and also how you should pace yourself to maintain unit reliability (not wrecked). Well there is my nickles worth. John C. Kincaid "Apple Valley CA" ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 360 Sat Mar 18, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 16:13 EST Marty: No need for a separate move op sheet for those...one sheet "move to X and defend" will work with a hasty defense (it would never work with a prepared defense tho, due to the mechanics of digging in...). Agent in Charge? I'd prefer Agent Schully, but that is just for my own purposes... :) Mike: Thanks for the kind words, I'd go with Thunder myself as a starter...known situation, begins small, critically important (read interesting) battle. fth: Sorry about the lack of industry figures...the abuse was just getting old, especially two years running after telling them to "use whatever grain of salt you like" and avoiding any sort of analysis (only to listen to others whine and analyze like nuts). The stars are gone for a very good reason. Our games spend an extended amount of time in development and they come out when we say they will. This makes us a handy target for those who want to mimic our efforts and steal our thunder (no pun...). That bugs me and I won't help them anymore. for Christ's sake, its not like its _that_ hard to come up with different game topics than what we are putting out. Just to make sure this is very clear...if you are _following_ you can be damn sure you aren't leading!!! Jim: Too bad there isn't some 1,000 ton slab of marble at Waco...tell the Texas state government to get right on it... Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 361 Sat Mar 18, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 19:09 EST Well John...to each his own I guess. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 362 Sat Mar 18, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 19:32 EST Samuai Cat: I played Beauregard in John Kincaid's second PERRYVILLE game and he's right: it was a gas. The CSA got stomped, but I'll maintain to my dying day that it happened because I couldn't control Kirby Smith. Had we played "come and get me" like the CSA in John's first game, we'd have carried the day. I don't know if I'd recommend PERRYVILLE for a starter. It's a good game, but not the best. I like THUNDER AT THE CROSSROADS II. There are lots of scenarios and, for the neophyte, a familiar topic. It's also got a lot of replay value. I agree with you that NO BETTER PLACE TO DIE would make a good starter game also. Taken as a whole, the CWB models Civil War combat better than any other system out there. You really can't go too far wrong with any of the games. PERRYVILLE was the first game in the series that I bought. Now I own all of them. Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 49 Message 116 Sat Mar 18, 1995 J.CHERPESKI [CHERPER] at 13:57 EST All, Does anyone have a PBEM system set-up for either GB or EatG? If you do, could somebody send me a copy. Please. I am begging. Maybe even groveling. Jeff ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 364 Sun Mar 19, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 01:51 EST The game of Perryville will be fun IF you play the ahistorical scenarios. Again, I only played the historical scenario twice and didn't get too much worked up on it to play the alternate ones. The rest of the other CWB games are great and fun EVEN when playing just the historical scenarios. It's kind of hard for me to "enjoy" Perryville when both Polk and Bragg are zeros. For starters, I'd play a game with a little more flexibility for both sides. Also, Perryville was the first game I bought and played since it looked pretty easy to get started. Meow! ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 365 Sun Mar 19, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:25 EST S.Cat: A game with Polk, Bragg, _and_ Buell! Like they say in the comercial...it don't get no better than this! Can't believe you can ask for more...and its all wrapped in one tight little package, too. :) Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 366 Sun Mar 19, 1995 E.CAYLOR [Drifter] at 11:28 EST Samurai Cat, I had four years at USNA, and 5 years in the Navy, was a Lieu- tenant at the time, but when I tried to buy a house in South San Jose/Gilroy, the realtors just laughed when I showed them my in- come, and that was in 1978. So I quit the Navy and moved to New Hampshire, and the realtors didn't laugh. The thing is, I think the California realtors were laughing at my schooling, not my pay. The NH realtors never heard of USNA and were willing to let me live here and not ruin their property values. I am glad I can afford all The Gamers games and my house, too. I was in SFO last week, it sure was green, but I am not sure if that was from the rains or from all the cash shelled out for the homes. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 367 Sun Mar 19, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 15:57 EST Drifter - all I can say is that I bought a lottery ticket last night for the $34 million grab bag. Even though I don't believe in lucky charms, I do have my lucky CWB Dice underneath my pillow. Yeah I agree, to live comfortably out here, you need to make at least $50K a year. $75K if you are married. Most realtors won't consider you even ready to buy a house when you have about $25K in the bank and make $4000 a month. Well those realtors won't laugh at me when I plunk down $6 million for a house when I win. Tis about time I had people sucking up to me rather than the other way around. Dean - Yeah I forgot Buell. BTW, do you have any more of the 1993 replacement counters sheets? I seem to have misplaced mine and I can't find it. I'll pay for it. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 368 Sun Mar 19, 1995 J.DUNNAM1 [JRD] at 17:07 EST Dean Wig and I are setting up the late start campaign game for EATG. Any advise for either side? Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 369 Sun Mar 19, 1995 M.LOCHTEFEL1 at 17:10 EST Thanks everyone for your advice on which games in the CWB series to start out with! Also, I'll keep all of you informed on how EatG is going for my group. Perry: I'd like to hear periodical reports on how your EatG game is going as well :-) Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 370 Sun Mar 19, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 19:24 EST S.Cat: You know, all of us will start taking you seriously when you when...well, maybe :) Jim: Which scenario? The Soviets are progressively more disperesed during the historical campaign, so the tactics (and opportuities) are different as the time passes...let me know which start date you have in mind... Ed: USNA? Isn't that a sort of community college for squids? (No, I didn't want to start a branch of service name calling contest, but I couldn't resist... besides, Army-Navy flame wars _always_ end with both sides dumping on the Marines (a groan rises from our Jarhead friends...)...so why don't we cut to the chase and just start bad mouthing Marines? :) All Marines in earshot: Relax and put down those weapons... Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 372 Sun Mar 19, 1995 J.SYLVESTER2 [Joe] at 22:13 EST I just wanted to thank those who responded to my question about retreating in PB(E)M play. I forgot to type in a response b4 hitting the download key... THANKS, Joe ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 373 Sun Mar 19, 1995 J.DUNNAM1 [JRD] at 22:27 EST Dean We have scenario #9 set up. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 374 Sun Mar 19, 1995 E.CAYLOR [Drifter] at 22:51 EST I was all set to get started with April's Harvest last week, when the phone rang and I was called out on the road for four days. It's too bad I developed such a nasty habit when I was young that I have to work and get some money. The habit? Food. The other habit I got just a little later was gaming. It sure would be nice to win that California lottery, never have to worry about another call to work, and just play games. Anyway, Operations was waiting for me when I got back today, and I have read about half of it. Owen Fuller's article about production of the games was a good read. I had punched out my counters to April's Harvest before going off to work, and had been impressed, but after reading Owen's article, I went to take a closer look. Wow! There are so many color changes in the mix, and I'll be damned if I can hardly tell which counter was next to the other in the sheet. I know Beauregard (all black) was next to Van Dorn (mustard), but I can't see any black on Van Dorn, or mustard on Beauregard. I went through all the counters, and it is almost impossible to see one color slide over to another counter, and the backs are even tighter than the fronts. This is my favorite battle in the Civil War, with both sides usually getting a chance to do some heavy attacking. I played Berg's version 3 times through in 1979-1980, but it never "felt" quite right, and I must have had close to 50 sheets of paper going in each game to track losses and casualties and stragglers. There was a die roll for every regiment every time it moved in order to generate straggler losses, boy was that ever a lot of work, too much actually. Battleline's game was the best offering I can recall on a simple scale, AH took that one over in the early '80's I think. I can't wait to see how this plays out with The Gamers version. The roll for getting Buell's army into play is a fine idea, that should keep things tense for both sides, adding a real sense of urgency, just as it did in the actual battle. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 375 Mon Mar 20, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 08:59 EST Ed: have fun with it...nd let us know how it goes (don't forget the 5:30am start time errata posted above...). Jim: That set up will take some real care and attention by the Russian player, The Stalingrad Pocket (what's left of it) is a write off...it will fall into your hands in a turn or two with only limited effort. The forces aimed at Kharkov are very spread out and loose (too much so). I would suggest consolidating the front (a small advance in the northern half will allow the Donets to contract the frontage for you as it slowly turns north. This will allow you to sheild yourself somewhat from the scourge of the SS panzers. Then it will be a matter of developing a good basis for a solid offensive (the real Soviets tried two offensives without as much preparation as they probably needed)...go for one big one with some solid planning. For the Germans, look for the opportunity to present itself whereby the SS can wreck havoc in a big way...don't be content with snipets! (PS--It is a lot easier to play the Germans in this one than the Russians because the German style fits better with the way more guys play. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 376 Mon Mar 20, 1995 D.BLENNEMANN [DIRK] at 12:28 EST Dean, I received OPERATIONS #16 yesterday. Looks great like expected. I specially enjoyed the articles "Mastering the OCS" and "Battle Groups". Best, DIRK ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 377 Mon Mar 20, 1995 W.ARNSDORF [MARTY] at 14:06 EST Not complaining, but I haven't received myplaytester copy of AH yet. Have they gone out? Marty ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 378 Mon Mar 20, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 17:16 EST Dirk: Glad you enjoyed it. Marty: They all went out last Wednesday...yours should be showing up soon. All: I'll be leaving for the GAMA Trade Show tommarrow morning...see you all next Monday...(strike up "On the Road again" please...) Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 379 Mon Mar 20, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 20:30 EST My store received AH today and I brought my copy home with me tonight. I'm very psyched to play this . . . already punched out the counters (while watching "Khartoum" on the VCR). This is the first brigade level Shiloh game since the one in A5A, which is unwinnable for the Rebs. I'll keep ya posted. - JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 380 Tue Mar 21, 1995 M.DEAN [Fine Games] at 00:12 EST Dean, Are Bloody Roads South and Barren Victory out of print? MD ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 381 Tue Mar 21, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 01:13 EST Dean - Did you get my message regarding 1993 replacement counters? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 382 Tue Mar 21, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:07 EST MD: Yep, both are out of print and both in the growing list of out of print games in the reprint queue--one per year, it will be a while...BV is well ahead of BRS on that list tho' S.Cat: I did and I responded...there is no 93 sheet...only a 94 and 92 sheets...both are available and extras can be had for $3 plus 9 cents for shipping. (Boy, I wish the post office and UPS charged shipping using the math we do :) I'm off to New Orleans this morning...see you all when I get back next week. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 383 Tue Mar 21, 1995 J.BROSHOT at 22:07 EST Dean (when you get back): thanks for the prompt response for my faxed TCS v3.1 questions. However, I think you missed one. If an artillery battalion has only two batteries (like the US ones in Operation Schmidt) can they fire battalion fire (which appear to require a battalion of three batteries)? The US artillery batteries in Schmidt have two batteries of 6 guns each, I believe that should be three batteries of 4 guns each. Thanks again. Jim Broshot ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 384 Tue Mar 21, 1995 J.REED9 [jhreed] at 22:52 EST Hey -- Great idea!!! We all move to Homer as a wargamer's retirement home. A warning folks; Homer's a dry town and who can stand to see their panzers in smoke without some fortitude. Anyway, I'll retire there and receive the rest of my one year C3I sub. John Reed ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 385 Wed Mar 22, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 01:06 EST I'll buy that for a dollar.....er $3.09! Thanks Dean. Do I make the check out to THE GAMERS? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 86 Thu Mar 23, 1995 W.ARNSDORF [MARTY] at 06:18 EST Got my copy of April's Harvest. I would like to thank Shirley for finding a copy of Omaha for me. I am probably bucking the trend here, but I do not like the map for AH. A little to busy for my tastes. Marty (Not a Wood-head :)) ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 87 Thu Mar 23, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 21:13 EST Marty, the Map for AH is really a way-station, not a destination. Dean is trying to acheive a more natural feel via the computer, and it is an ongoing process. As he's noted before, the AH map was done before all the feedback from the ITQF II map was in, and so doesn't really reflect the latest form of the process. Myself, I'm not so fond of AH either, mostly because it is hard to see the outlines of the fields at a glance. Hence, it doesn't quite look like Shiloh, until you study it. However, I'm really excited about what he acheived with the nezt map - Krasni Bor. Here, he's used the same symbols, yet created a much more appealing item. I'm curious to see what public reaction will be to that one. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 88 Thu Mar 23, 1995 R.SAVAGE6 [Rich] at 21:21 EST Dean, I called you with a question about "Hunters From the Sky" the other night which you answered admirably. I have one more that I'd like clarified so I can proceed to solitaire this baby and get into the system. (I'm a former Marine, and 'Matainaku' awaits.) When a combat unit SFA's at another unit, is that the only time that it can shoot that phase? I can see your "opportunity fire" rule working, where you hold back some of your units to pick off targets of opportunity, but I'm still a little thick in the head about how many times a unit can SFA. Also, there's an example in the rules about a tank taking ten shots at a unit, each individually on the Point fire system. Appreciate any help you, or fellow TCS gamers can shed on this question, so I can begin blazing away at those German fallschirmjagers. Thanking everyone in advance, Rich Savage ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 89 Thu Mar 23, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 22:18 EST I've seen AH and while it's not bad I did get kind of blinded by those forest hexes. It is a bit busy. One day Dean will probably put hidden images in those forest hexes like those weird dot paintings. perhaps a face of General Lee or Lincoln. Still the counters are very nice. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 90 Thu Mar 23, 1995 DIPLOMACY-1 at 23:12 EST Topic Closed for Cleaning Peter Szymonik Games RT Sysop ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 91 Fri Mar 24, 1995 J.DUNNAM1 [JRD] at 21:47 EST Dean Perry is current stomping the GD over at my house and a question has arisen. I hit one of his MG sections with artillery and the result was 2 Dice/2. He rolled 10, resulting in 5 casualties, but the MG only has 2 steps. Does Bn Morale go up? Shouldn't the Point Fire Table "-1 target is in fire mode (doesn't apply to AT guns" also say "AT or Inf guns"? Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 92 Fri Mar 24, 1995 E.CAYLOR [Drifter] at 23:31 EST I haven't had time to get too far into AH, but here is a progress report at 9:30 on the first day. The southern boys are in trouble...thank heavens for the 5:30 start time errata or it would be far worse. On the 7am turn, the Army of the Ohio roled a 66, they will be a factor shortly. The casualties have been massive so far, both sides are rolling 9 or higher often, and 6's on straggler checks. The CSA has 13KIA and only 5 stragglers. The USA has 19 KIA and 22 stragglers. Sherman's division is wrecked and has failed a corps defensive check and is in full retreat. A-5 and Cav-5 don't exist, mostly due to stragglers. Prentiss's Moore also doesn't exist, again due to mostly stragger losses. Prentiss will probably be wrecked soon due to strong CSA attacks. But the south cannot sustain this forever. Hurlburt and Wallace will form strong defensive lines, and all of Hindman's boys have been hit hard, as has Pond (P-1-2). Even though the USA will be driven back, and Prentiss will soon be wrecked, the CSA will be unable to get through the Hornet's Nest by the time the Army of the Ohio shows up to cause them serious problems. I will go just a few more hours through this, and then probably start again, now that I have a better feel for the game. At this point, I would have to say that this is the best reprentation of Shiloh I have played so far. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 93 Sat Mar 25, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 07:04 EST Jim, Dean is in New Orleans, huckstering for the company at the GAMA trade show. Answers forthcoming on Monday, I suspect. Drifter, Sad news indeed about the Army of the Ohio. The South sounds like it's OK for losses, so far, but of course, it gets harder from here. Attacking alerted Yankees is muy harder than attacking sleepy Yankees. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 94 Sat Mar 25, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 13:20 EST Dean: Got a question on TCS 3.1 - Battalion Morale: Do steps lost due to a Morale Check (i.e. Surrender) or SYR (i.e. unit dissolves) count for Battalion Morale purposes, or JUST results from the fire table count? I assume the latter, as the Area Fire table is the only place Battalion Morale adjustments are mentioned. BTW, I believe that TCS is a different (better!) system with 3.1 rules. Thanks, Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 95 Sat Mar 25, 1995 M.DEAN [Fine Games] at 20:10 EST Picked up a used copy of In Their Quiet Fields recently. I've seen this game before, but this copy had some unusual features. I'd like to know if this copy is anything special. Most noticable is the fact that the box has a NEGATIVE image picture, rather than a normal POSITIVE image, as its main graphic. The box itself is white with some black & red printing. The counters are matte brown & blue w/ no graphics on the counters themselves. I believe these are normal 1st edition. Was this game sold w/ these features at any point? MD ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 96 Sat Mar 25, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 21:42 EST MD, What you have there is a copy of the very first edition of ITQF, our very first game. I must admit (ahem) it shows. About 1,000 of that box and counter run exist. If you're very lucky, and it's unpunched, it may be one of the rare countersheets (about 60, I think) that was cut on a hand-cranked press. The cuts would be less regular in depth and centering. Think of it as our version of the Guttenberg Bible. I'd be fascinated to know what you might price it at, if you were reselling it. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 97 Sun Mar 26, 1995 R.SAVAGE6 [Rich] at 00:05 EST Guys, I need a little help here. I've a great game of "Ardennes" going, where I've got a pretty decent breakthrough with the Germans, into turn four. My problem is that I have the variant 11th Panzer Division which I got as a "Christmas Bonus," but I can't find any rules as to when they should be released, or used at all. Needless to say, as the German player, I need every advantage I can get before the Allied hordes come crashing from all sides. I'd appreciate it if anyone could tell me when and if the 11th Panzer Div. is released to the Germans. Thanks a lot. Rich ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 98 Sun Mar 26, 1995 S.VANCE4 [Steve] at 14:07 EST MD -- I'd like to know, too, what you'd price the ITQF 1st for, since I also have a copy of it, exactly as you described (probably not among the 60 with "handcut" sheets). It's got the large-sized dice and The Gamers sticker (NOT a bumper sticker, as Dean notes in his accompanying letter), but no Reg card, which I used to register. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 99 Sun Mar 26, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 17:01 EST Dave - Is the press still in existence? I've got some questions regarding TCS 3.0 Sorry if I sound kind of stupid. 1)Can a unit spot for a mortar SFA without participating in the SFA itself? 2)During the placement of the active target hex, can the actual target hex be out of the spotted LOS even if the plotted hex was in the spotters LOS to begin with? We had a situation where I was moving out of LOS through the jungle in Mantanikau, and the plotted hex was within LOS of one of his units. Then he shifted the marker to a hex which contained my hidden units. Seems strange that he can mark a hex which just so happens to contain units without even seeing them. Thanks ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 100 Sun Mar 26, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 19:48 EST S. Cat, The fabled press went "sproing" about 100 sheets in (not all of which were usable.) After that, we had to abandon 16th century methods for something more modern. After all the welds went, Dean hung on to the thing for several years, and then junked it. Maybe not, however. It'd make a fine addition to the company museum we'll have in the foyer of "Essig Towers" (Homer's only 50 story commercial and residential luxury building) when it's built. As for your spotting questions - these answers are subject to modification by people who know better - 1) yes; and 2) no. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 101 Sun Mar 26, 1995 R.SAVAGE6 [Rich] at 20:16 EST Dave, I don't want to be a pest, but I've sent a couple of messages and have yet to hear from you guys, who are usually so reliable in response. Basically, I'm playing "Ardennes" with a friend, and am doing rather well initially with the Germans, as is to be expected. My question concerns the 11th Panzer Division, several units that came in last year's Operations "XMAS package, variant counters, etc. Could you, or any other Gamer in the know, tell me when and if I get the 11th Panzer, such as for capturing a certain city by a certain date, or whatever? I sure could use every regiment I can get my hands on. Great game, Ardennes, by the way. Thanks in Advance, Rich Savage ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 102 Sun Mar 26, 1995 P.PERLA at 20:55 EST Rich S, You may have missed the fact that Dean is off line until Monday. That is why yoiu have not heard a response to your questions. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 103 Sun Mar 26, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 22:54 EST Sorry, Rich, Dean left a message about his departure and return. However, now he's back, and found he's having trouble with his phone line. Ergo, he may be off longer than anticipated, and I will try and get any answers still floating in the void. I'll check on the 11th Pz for you. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 104 Sun Mar 26, 1995 W.GRAVES2 [Wig] at 23:15 EST Dean, Perry and I spent the weekend playing GD'41 (and a little GD'42). We concentrated on the campaign game and also worked out many of the incomplete scenario victory conditions. Should be ready for you in a couple of weeks. Wig BTW. We played with Russian FOs for artillery and 120mm mortar fire and self spotting for 82mm mortars...worked GREAT! ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 105 Sun Mar 26, 1995 R.SAVAGE6 [Rich] at 23:43 EST Dave, Thanks for the (as usual) prompt and courteous service, something that's always been a hallmark of your gaming company. Luckily, my wargaming opponent doesn't come back for a couple of days, so I can put off using the "ghost division," until he comes back. Also have "Hunters from the Sky" set up to play solitaire. My best hope of getting that system down, as no orders need to be written. Though it seems to say you can fire only one SFA per turn, but as many Overwatch fires as triggered. A radical departure from the previous versions? One last question, and I'll let you go. On the LOS rules, I can see the math problem, and how it's figured out, (vaguely,) but is there any way that it can be explained so you can use it on a pocket calculator? That would make it much easier, to us calculator impaired. Again, thanks for your response, and looking forward to some good gaming. Rich Savage ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 106 Mon Mar 27, 1995 D.STARRY at 00:26 EST If you don't mind, I had a couple of questions regarding the new game schedule. What will be the TCS release for 1995 (besides Krasni Bor at Origins)? Which game will be the subject of a reprint in 1996? By the way, I enjoyed the new issue of Operations very much. Excellent mix of articles. Dave Starry. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 107 Mon Mar 27, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 04:48 EST Thanks for the quick response Dave. Silly me for asking those questions as I found out later in any case. Maybe in due time I can contribute my old computer to Dean's Museum. It pre- dates the Apple II by a few months. Not worth much but still runs. I even have a few programs for it like Space Trek where you can vaporize the evil Klarnons. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 108 Mon Mar 27, 1995 E.CAYLOR [Drifter] at 08:33 EST I have that ITQF "Negative Photo" game, but am not sure if it is one of the "Rare 60". Unfortunately, all my counters except the info counters are punched, cause I PLAYED the damn thing. Oh well, I never considered myself a collector, just a gamer. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 109 Mon Mar 27, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 20:07 EST Rich, Brace yourself: there are really no official rules for use of the 11th Panzer, it seems Dean let Don put them into the freebie, and then forgot to include an optional rule for their use. Given the length of the game you're in so far (turn 7-8, wasn't it?) I suggest that you bring on the 11th next turn, and pay 1 VP for their use. Real rules will appear in the next issue of OPERATIONS. In the meantime, Dean intended that everyone just tinker with the unit in question, Have fun. LOS: I tend to eyeball it, precisely because simpler explanations always foundered, and the rule evolved into a calculus equation:) You need to be fairly good at spatial visualisation, however. Sorry, I can't think of way to shorthand it. SFAs: There's an important distinction that needs to be made here; namely, that each unit can only fire one SFA per turn. The way your question was worded, I couldn't tell if you were asking if each _side_ was limited to one SFA per turn. Other than that, you're correct. Each unit can fire multiple overwatch in a turn, but only one SFA. Dave, Schedules: the next TCS beyond Krasni Bor (AKA: Spanish Holiday!) is LEROS: ISLAND OF THE LOST NAZIS. Leros is a 1943 German invasion of a Agean Island, and also done by Dave Frederichs. Great topic here: commandos, paratroops, Nazis and Brandenbergers take on Brits and reformed Italians (who can't leave their defensive positions on pain of being shot by their new allies, the Brits.) Way cool, in Californese. This sucker has three maps, with about the same force structure as HUNTERS. The next reprint is STALINGRAD POCKET, redone with corrected OoB and maps. Glad you liked OPS, we're trying to please a diverse audience. Drifter, Thank you for your support. (to quote a couple of old guys on a porch.) Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 110 Mon Mar 27, 1995 J.STORMES1 [James] at 22:24 EST Line of Sight is not calculus, it's trigonometry. And it's simple, if you just look at it from the right perspective: H If (H-L)/D is greater than (C-L)/d, then the LOS is unblocked. /| If (H-L)/D is less that (C-L)/d, then LOS is unblocked. / | If (H-L)/D is equal to (C-L)/d, then you can argue it either way, C/ | but the rules state that LOS is unblocked. /| | / | | You are comparing the angles of elevation from L to C and H by L/ | | comparing their tangents (= elevation/distance). <--D-> The biggest problem with the TCS 3.1 LOS rules is the "flat" summit rule, which states that all points within the highest (or lowest) contour line have the same elevation. I hope this formats correctly when I upload it! James ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 111 Tue Mar 28, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 01:24 EST Hell Dave - Dean should make 3D maps and not have to print laborious trig and geometry algorithms. Besides I stopped thinking in 10th grade. I learned just enough to make a budget and balance my checkbook. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 112 Tue Mar 28, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 19:02 EST Thanks, James, but I wasn't trying to be specific about my math terms.:) Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 113 Tue Mar 28, 1995 M.DEAN [Fine Games] at 21:15 EST Dave P, So In the Quiet Fields 1st was sold in quantities with a NEGATIVE image on the box?? Why would the Gamers have done that? It doesn't look BAD, but it certainly isn't as eyecatching as a positive image would be. What was the scoop on why it was published this way? MD ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 115 Wed Mar 29, 1995 D.STARRY at 04:09 EST Regarding the subject of LOS questions> Has anybody out there tried using the the old table that SPI used to put out with their games that needed LOS? It was offered as an alternative to the need to stop the game to break out the calculator to do a math problem, and looks like a web made by an anal retentive spider [hope I didn't offend any spiders out there ;)]. I used it last year while playing Objective:Schmidt solitiare and it was very useful. As far as flat hill tops and bottoms go, it may not be as realistic but it is a hell of a lot easier to deal with, and I, for one, am glad to see this change in TCS 3.1. On another subject, Leros sound quite interesting. I'm looking forward to it. However, I'm also very much looking forward to the Russians in the TCS. I've recently begun picking up the CWB series (the last of the Gamers' series for me to get into). The local game store where I live has a boxed copy of "August Fury". What are any CWB gamer's thoughts on this game? Should I pick it up while I can? I haven't seen any of the new CWB games yet (NBPTD, ITQF2 or AF) due to the fact that I am now frantically trying to pick up the titles which have gone/are going out of print. Perry, Thanks for remembering and asking about my GD'40 game. Unfortunately, due to illnesses and other commitments we have not gotten very far. That and the fact that my opponent showed up for the first session without having already drawn up his Op Sheets [can you believe, he must have had something more important to do. Really must get his priorities straight :)]. I relayed the story of the H-39's on a flanking march into the German rear and instilled the fear of God in him. The first session did not move very quickly as we refamiliarized ourselves with the rules. He seems to be having a bit of difficulty getting up the hill, and I have taken out 3 AFV's (2 of which were Stugs). I believe that he placed his smokescreen a bit prematurely, as I would have opted for a bit of artillery first to soften things up, followed by smoke and than a move in to close assault. We have discovered that combined assaults are not everything they were in 3.0 (I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this). Still, the fall of Stonne looms heavy and I can only prepare for the counterattack. I'll keep you posted on our progress. Dave Starry. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 116 Wed Mar 29, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 21:20 EST MD: Why do it with the negative image? Call it an expiriment in alternative graphics. It was our first game, and Dean was feeling his way into this process. RE: 11 Panzer, Technically, 11 PZ, along with 10 SS PZ, were part of the "exploitation Reserve" held ready for commitment after the Muese was breached. And yes, they were still rebuilding at the time, but ran to about 60-70% TO&E by mid december. All: Dean is currently struggling to get his commo problem solved - it seems we need to resecure some info from GEnie types - He hopes to be back on-line soon, but has no hard date yet. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 117 Thu Mar 30, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 00:22 EST Thanks Perry. Unfortunately, most of my friends have and learned 3.0 and don't want to learn another format as it will confuse the issue. We will wait after we play Omaha to learn 3.1. I want to play using 3.1 but friends rejected that proposal...democracy in action no doubt. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 118 Thu Mar 30, 1995 E.CAYLOR [Drifter] at 22:17 EST My first game of AH is going slowly, I am at 11:30 on day one now. Though it is slow, it is fascinating. I have NEVER seen any divisions cave in during one of The Gamers versions of a Civil War battle like has happened here. Both Sherman and Prentis are decimated. Sherman could never get initiative, yet would never fail an defensive stoppage roll. So his boys were like the black knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. EVERY one of Shermans's units has been completely wiped out (except for Stuart on the far left flank. He has suffered 30 KIA 32 MIA. The damaga was done almost exclusively by Hindman's 3rd Corps with a littl help from Pond and Gibson from the 2nd Corps. They have lost a combined 23 KIA and 9 KIA. About a third of those losses occured attacking McClernand, who has already lost 7 KIA and 10 MIA. McClernand is wounded, and out of combat. Prentiss has suffered nearly the same fate at the hands of Wither's portion of the 2nd Corps. Prentiss has every regiment wrecked (except for the two hanging around the landing), and all of Wither's boys are still a strong viable force in the Hornet's nset. The south has also captured 11 cannon and a supply wagon. I can't ever recall more than 2 or 3 cannon ever captured in any battle before. Just when the CSA 3rd Corps was about to wreck McClernand's 1st Div., they rolled an attack stoppage. Some of the 1st Corps are in some of the Hornet's Nest and sunken road hexes, but have also been repulsed a time or two. The fighting is bloody there as Withers approaches. A.S. Johnston cannot get the reserves under Breckenridge to move, if he could have earlier, the USA forces would be in full retreat to the landing. As good as it looks for the CSA, Buell rolled well, and has 2 Divisions at the landing now, and it is simply a matter of time till he gets them in place to stop the CSA advance well short of the bluffs near Pittsburg Landing. I hope to get to about the 2pm turn tomorrow, but then will be away from home till April 10th. Rats. This has been a real treat so far, again I have never witnessed such a total collapse of a division, but I think the CSA may see it the other way on day 2, if it lasts that long. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 119 Thu Mar 30, 1995 T.ARMSTRON10 at 22:41 EST Hey guys! What kind of articles are you looking for that would be connected to the SCS? Historical or game specific? Kind regards, Tim Armstrong ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 120 Thu Mar 30, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 23:49 EST Just in case nobody has mentioned it: Ulysses. Surprise. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 121 Fri Mar 31, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 20:07 EST Help! Dave or someone ... I have a Champion Hill playtest report (very belatedly) that I wish to send to The Gamers Genie E-mail address. Problem is, I have misplaced it and forgotten it. Could someone please let me know what it is? Many thanks. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 122 Fri Mar 31, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 20:13 EST Perry: Thanks for the assist on Batt Morale. I was sure that I was doing it wrong, because nobody was aquiring any (not that the French in GD40 NEED any more morale problems!). Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 123 Fri Mar 31, 1995 E.CAYLOR [Drifter] at 21:36 EST I will be away from home till April 10th, but did get to 2:30 in AH today. The CSA owns the Hornet's Nest, the Peach Orchard, Cloud, Cavalry, and Jones Fields. They have wrecked USA 1, 4, 5, and 6 Div. The losses are 93 USA KIA and 91 stragglers, CSA losses are 71 KIA and 25 stragglers with 2 wrecked regiments, but no wrecked Corps. The Army of the Ohio is holding down the USA left flank with 2 divisions, and W. Wallace (the only un-wrecked Div. on the field0 is holding a strong defense 8-10 hexes east of the landing. The CSA is having trouble continuing its massive offensive in light of its losses, although the reserves under Breckinridge (I sometimes work with his great-great grand-daughter, and she definately bears a family resemblance) are driving the Army of Ohio back. If Buell had not rolled for such a lucky early arrival, the CSA just might win this thing. Anyway, when all the Ohio boys are aboard, and "Lazy Lou" Wallace shows up, the CSA will be back-pedaling and routing I suspect. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 124 Sat Apr 01, 1995 R.EICHENLAUB [Dick] at 09:14 EST Probably a dumb OCS question but... If a unit can't trace supply and is going to pay 2T on board, does it need to trace to the On Map supply dump that has the 2T to pay? If not must it be Out Of Supply and face attrition? Thanks, - Dick- ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 132 Tue Apr 04, 1995 G.OCAMPO [Gil] at 00:33 EDT I had the original Thunder at the Crossroads and ITQF but due to a lack of space and time was unable to learn and play the game. I've lost touch with the series since it first came out. Any suggestions for what is the best game in the series for someone to start out with, ie doesn't have a big map and low counter density? I'm interested in getting back into the series since I saw ITQF II at my local game store, but have been hesistant because of the size and time needed to play ITQF II. Gil ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 133 Tue Apr 04, 1995 P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog] at 01:18 EDT Dean, What about defensive orders and failure in AH? Mike, Wait until you try attacking into the red city hexes. The CRT requires massive odds. In our game, we have made it to turn 13 and the Russians are beseiging Morov. and Tats. We were able to destroy 3 pz divs in massive battles. Scott does not know when to run. We have a small bridgehead over the Donets. The Germans in the pocket are still in supply so I have not attacked. We are hurting for supply w/ 2 offensives going. The other is in the north and the Hungarians are gone except for 1 seige. The Italians are running from the Don to the Donets. We have also had either 2 or 3 turns of flight. I have lost too many Soviet fighters but the 2 German fighters I caught on the ground in the pocket early one have made a massive difference. I have been able to do put up or shut up and then bomb airfields and destroy German stukas on the ground. Loads of fun. Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 134 Tue Apr 04, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:42 EDT Gil: If the size of ITQF2 is too much, that really limits the games available to start with (actually, it limits them to three: Perryville (out of print), No Better Place to Die, and April's Harvest). I'll let other wags impart wisdom on which of the three they like best for starters. Perry: The alert system supercedes any orders (incl. Defensive ones) while units are not alert. I would suggest not playing with the Def orders in the game (a biased statement since I don't care for them personally anyway), if you do use them, they (and any concept of defensive stoppage) have no effect on play at all (for the union, that is) until after units have been alerted. Unalerted units are that way because they have no responsiveness to command yet...they can't withdraw after any sort of defensive failure, they can't execute an ECR, they must sit there and take their licks. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 135 Tue Apr 04, 1995 W.RAMSAY [Bill] at 18:11 EDT Dean, Which of the CWB series would be best for beginning with three players? I have the entire series, but don't want to try any of the two-map games if I can help it. Regards, Bill ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 136 Tue Apr 04, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 19:30 EDT Gil- Dean didn't mention "Embrace An Angry Wind" which I believe is still in print. Low counter density, two maps but playabe separately, and don't forget that great Hood's Addiction Table. NBPTD is a good starter but Murfreesboro is such an uninteresting battle. -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 137 Tue Apr 04, 1995 P.PERLA at 20:59 EDT Say Dean, A friend of mine recently bought himself a Power Mac and was excited at the prospect of getting up on Genie. But he has been having a nightmare getting hiw modem to work. Could you post or e-mail me a phone number that he might call to see if he can sort this out? For the life of me I cannot find any phone numbers that you can use to speak to a real live Genie tech person Thanks Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 138 Wed Apr 05, 1995 G.OCAMPO [Gil] at 01:47 EDT Thanks Dean and JC, Think I'll try April's Harvest. Just have to go my local hobby store and find a copy. Maybe, if my wife lets me, I'll also try "Embrace An Angry Wind" I do remember seeing that at the hobby store. Gil ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 139 Wed Apr 05, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:52 EDT Bill: I prefer to suggest Thunder at the Crossroads as a starter (even though it has two maps...a one map first day scenario is available). Reasons: Familiar situation...meeting engagement...small number of units growing larger as play continues and players get more comfortable with what they are doing...finally, it is one of best games to date, period. JC--I left out Embrace because of the second map. EAW is a lot of fun, plays very fast, and is a real hoot to watch Hood rampage about. Peter--Dave gave me a phone number which didn't work for me (I have an "internal account" the ppeople at the other end didn't deal with. (Dave please post it for Peter, I ditched my copy of it when they proved their uselessness to my purposes.) My problem was solved by e-mail direct to the powers that be and they kindly arranged for someone to call and help me out. Gil-- Good luck with it...play reports have been pouring in from Rebs delighted at the chance to slice up some big Northern units before they wake up and can put up an honest fight. Good News! The Boss Hog shrinkwrapper is being installed this week (I never thought I'd have to be the proud owner of a $500 air compressor, but now I am...anyone want to ride their bikes to Homer to fill up on air? :) The system should be up and running by this weekend's collate...tell Owen to rent his Johnny Bench equipment and get ready for the Nolan Ryan's! Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 140 Wed Apr 05, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 18:12 EDT Peter, call GEnie at 1-800-638-9636. That's client services, and they should be able to help your friend. It's liable to be a modem thing, I suspect, I've known two or three guys with similar problems. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 141 Thu Apr 06, 1995 W.RAMSAY [Bill] at 00:18 EDT Dean, Unfortunately, I got your suggestion after we tried No Better Place to Die. The consensus of the group I game with (three other guys) was that the system did simulate what it said it was going to simulate, but the number of dice rolls to resolve combat/stragglers/morale (even with rolling all the dice at once) was a bit too much of a hassle. As for my opinion, I liked the system very much. I'm going to do some more solitaire playing and see if I can get the combat routine down a little better. Thanks again for a lot of good games. Even if I can't figure out the pink counters in Ardennes . Regards, Bill ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 143 Thu Apr 06, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 20:47 EDT Bill: Too bad about your friends...maybe they will like it better when they see the streamlined system in the NBS v2.0 rules (which can be applied to the CWB) instead. Right now I have to get over this flu I've gotten so I can participate fully in this weeklend's collate...then again, if I let it drag out.... :) Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 144 Thu Apr 06, 1995 W.RAMSAY [Bill] at 20:47 EDT That's exactly what I was looking for, Dean. I was going to try to come up with tables that do exactly that on my own, now I'll just wait until Marengo. Hope your recovery is complete. Regards, Bill ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 145 Fri Apr 07, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:18 EDT Bill: I had a simple 24-hr bug...laid me flat all day yeasterday, now I'm fine... The tables in NBS v2.0 will be exactly modeled after the current CWB ones, except that the morale slots have been bumped up a notch to reflect the higher professional quality of the European armies. Given that and the use of the CWB fire points, it is a streamlined system to do the same job as the original tables with a whole lot less fuss. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 146 Fri Apr 07, 1995 P.PERLA at 18:54 EDT Dave, Thanks. I have passed on the number to Gregg, my friend. Hopefully they will sort him out. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 147 Fri Apr 07, 1995 L.PRATT [LRP] at 19:21 EDT What are you guys collating this weekend? Yom Kippur? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 148 Sat Apr 08, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 09:57 EDT Could you give me a hint exactly how the fire results/straggler/ morale system has been "streamlined?" I always thought there was a way to incorporate straggler results directly into the fire results table but I never came up with anything workable. -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 149 Sun Apr 09, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 19:57 EDT Dean, I wanted to wait until I actually acquired a copy of April's Harvest before I commented upon the graphics, but if you are still keeping track, please add my vote to the "thumbs down" column. I think I would get a headache if I looked at that map too long (maybe not a bad idea; keeps down the all- night sessions). The map looks like either A: A volcano has erupted on the left side of the map, spilling glowing and cooling lava all over the battlefield; or B: The dense woods around Pittsburgh landing have caught fire, which has been whipped into a terrible conflagration. Given the predominant orange tones to the terrain, I suspect Van Dorn's orange (?) units will disappear. Some of the Union "blues" also look suspiciouly akin to currently popular car and sport uniform colors -- you know, teal and all that. I also dislike the new woods symbol. It looks like some of the molds I used to see growing on the leftovers in my bachelor apartment's refrigerator. HOWEVER: I think I'll love the game, just as I've always admired the system and your company's terrific customer support. I just hope you'll one day, long down the road, get around to re-printing the map and counters once you've passed this graphics way-station. Thanks for listening, Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 150 Sun Apr 09, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 20:47 EDT Yom Kippur is collated, and will soon start shipping. It's actually early, (original due date May 15) and you should start seeing it in stores around the end of this month or by May 1 at the latest. Of course, earlier pre-orders and mail order customers will ship ASAP. RE: Losses and stragglers The new tables directly incorporate stragglers into both the morale and fire combat CRTs. It eliminates a step. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 151 Sun Apr 09, 1995 J.BYRNE2 [Jim Byrne] at 23:08 EDT Re: April Harvest What I love is the moniker that my 9 year old son has hung on one of the symbols for wooded terrain. He calls it a "dead spider". As much as I like the game I have to say the map reminds me of an adolescent after a chocolate binge. Is there some reason that the standard cartographical colours and symbols fail meet the requirements of wargames? They seem to do well enough for the real thing. I could see a requirement for a more primitive approach back in the days when colour reproduction was expensive and less reliable and when access to first class graphic artists was extremely limited; but any printer that could produce the AH map could produce a regular map, and products like CorelDraw and MicroGraphix Designer put the highest quality cartographic tools into the hands of anyone with around $4,000.00 to spend. I prefer proper contour lines and elevation marks on my maps. The use of colour on small scale maps to represent elevation is fine, but on large scale maps it just gets in the way of terrain features. I like having my built up areas in grey, my background in off white and my forest and woods in green. Main roads in red, secondary in double line black and water features in blue. Rough going is highlighted by a black or grey hatchure overlay. For modern period maps I would really like to see the UMT employed. For pre 20th century maps, if the artist is up to it, I would prefer to see maps produced in the period style. Not to take this to extremes however, the idea of fighting a wargame on a period representation of the battlefield of say, Agincourt, does not seem to me to be a worthwhile exercise. But the nineteenth century produced some very interesting, and readable cartography, which might give an even greater sense of verisimilitude to simulations of battles which were fought during that period. Failing period reproductions, I would prefer that contempory cartographic conventions were employed. Just a thought. JBB ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 152 Tue Apr 11, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 00:28 EDT Re the April Harvest map: the terrain chart (the one with the movement rates, etc.) has shading on it that is too dark, and forces you to get up close to it to see what the heck it says. I wish it were lighter, and that the chart itself were sized a little larger. The woods are better than in the Antietam game, but still not as good on,s say, Thunder at the Crossroads. I don't like their cartoony feel. Is it really "Chamber's Field," and not "Chambers' Field"? And there's another field somewhere on the map that seems as if it should have an apostrophe. As far as the counters are concerned, I don't think they adequately show players which units are part of which formations. I think they are distinctly inferior in this regard to Thunder at the Crossroads. I think this is actually a serious problem in this game. I was also disappointed by the brevity of the special rules. For instance, an option is provided to include Van Dorn's force, but how or why this was actually feasible is never mentioned. And there is no explanation whatsoever given for the "pre-Pea Ridge" and "post-Pea Ridge" disparities. Someone not already very knowledgeable about the Civil War would be up a creek. Back to the counters for a second--I wish that something from the _original_ Thunder at the Crossroads was brought back: having the morale and fire levels on the front of the counters. I hate constant counter flipping. Just some feedback. (incidentally, the new counters were physically very nice, although difficult to separate from the counter tree) ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 153 Tue Apr 11, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 11:53 EDT Thanks for the comments and constructive critiques, guys. Sometimes it is hard to believe guy A is looking at the same map as guy B when one comments as above and the other calls me up to say the map is the greatest thing he's ever seen... Pitman: One never has to flip the counters if he fights off the loss charts like he has to anyway...hiding that information was in response to player feedback as players complained the weak-link brigades were being selectively targeted for attention. Marengo will try that out again (info on both sides)...depending on response, that sort of thing can easily be incorperated into future CWB releases. Comments? The preorder Yom Kippurs all shipped today and yesterday...those looking for store copies should see them in the retail outlets on or about May 1st. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 154 Tue Apr 11, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 18:36 EDT The loss charts also have that information on them, Dean. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 155 Tue Apr 11, 1995 J.BEHAN1 [Jeff] at 19:24 EDT Dean: I prefer the morale & size hidden as it is now. I reduces the temptation to gang up on a lines weak link. Later, Jeff ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 156 Tue Apr 11, 1995 C.CHATTO [Carl] at 21:59 EDT AS someone mentioned earlier, I tried to incorporate the straggler table in Thunder to eliminate a step. It seemed possible, but I was getting into a three-dimensional chart and gave up quickly after THAT turn of events. Is there a way to get our hands on such a chart for the Civil War Brigade Series games? Just wondering. Carl ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 157 Tue Apr 11, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 22:30 EDT Carl, As of yet, no such CWB tables exist - only the NBS tables. Moving them over to CWB is not a high priority at this time, mostly due to time and priorities of other projects. In fact, I don't know if Dean has even really made a final decision about adapting them to CWB or not. Certainly a number of guys would like to see 'em - but a like number are saying they like continuity and would prefer not to see the rules change that often. This is, in a nutshell, the essential dynamic of a series - to change or not to change. I think they'll eventually make thier way into CWB, but not for awhile. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 158 Wed Apr 12, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 01:13 EDT Dean - My friends and I think that you should just stick with graphics from Thunder at the Crossroads or from No Better Place to Die. What was wrong with the old graphics? My motto is that if it ain't broken, don't fix it. I do like the counters though. I just have problems with the newer maps. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 159 Wed Apr 12, 1995 J.DUNNAM1 [JRD] at 19:13 EDT Dave Any chance at getting a look at NBS 2.0 so I can pick Wagram back up? I put everything on hold until they come out. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 160 Wed Apr 12, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 20:45 EDT Jim, NBS 2.0 is still not yet fully formed. Once it's closer to final stage, I'll get a copy of the rules and charts to you. Don't look for it much before Origins, however. We will be very busy the next few months, what with two more releases before the con, and all. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 161 Wed Apr 12, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 21:02 EDT Finally getting around to playing AH . . . I'm afraid I belong to the "tone down the map" school. Lively counters look better on a subdued map . . . look at GMT's tactical stuff for good examples. Also agree with the Van Dorn rule, which really needs more elab- oration (maybe an Ops article?). As for play, the lack of corps for the Union makes them highly flexible and more quick to respond (once they're awake). At the same time, it's really tough keeping Confederate divisions in command, spread out as they are in that dense woods. I was a bit boggled by the Reb set-up requiring most of the units be in lines instead of columns. Bragg's corps in particular is all over the place. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying it adds to the interest level. This may be one of the more challenging games in the series. -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 162 Thu Apr 13, 1995 J.BEHAN1 [Jeff] at 00:22 EDT Dean et all: I received Yom Kippur today. I think the graphics are awesome. I took it over John Kisner's house so I could actually wave a game in front of his face that he actually didn't have his grubby paws on yet! I'm anxious to play it. I haven't had a chance to give it or April Harvest yet. A lot of good gaming ahead I'm sure. I read the YK game specific rules. I'm afraid I know nothing about what actually happened in the fight (I was five years old at the time, almost to the day). I would have liked to see a quick recap of historical results, but I understand that space limits still rule in the publishing decisions. What were the acutal posibilies of US/Soviet intervention at the time? Was that really a consideration? Did that drive the final cease fire? Later, Jeff ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 163 Thu Apr 13, 1995 T.ARMSTRON10 at 08:21 EDT Hello all. Perhaps I have missed it but have the dates for the Homer - Fest been announced? Kind regards, Tim ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 164 Thu Apr 13, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:23 EDT Tim: HomerCon (as some wag dubbed it) will be 28 Sept to 1 Oct 95. Jeff: Both the US and USSR were highly active in airlifting arms and munitions to the combatants (as I understand it, the US denudded NATO of its stockpile of TOW missles, a reduction which was not made good for the rest of the 70's). I can't say for sure about the USSR (but also can't believe they wouldn't match US responses), but US forces were on a high state of alert and had the Israelis blown off another UN ceasefire (they got away with one) after they were really womping the Egyptians, I can easily see the Soviet Union stepping in to stop the exploitation. US forces would soon follow. Also, by the time of a second ceasefire collapse, international horror at what was going on (remember, were not talking about a low intensity conflict here) might very well have forced one or (probably) both superpowers to intervene to stop the carnage. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 165 Thu Apr 13, 1995 J.BEHAN1 [Jeff] at 17:31 EDT Dean: Rules question, ITQF II: A corps has just successfully occupied the Sunken Road during it's movement, fulfilling it's orders. At what point does it become "uncomitted"? Immediately; after corps attack stopage during the next turn; or after order acceptance the next turn? There are two reasons it might matter. One, it could fail it's next corps attack stoppage and thereby have to retreat from it's position because of the 8 hex away/HQ rule. Two, when it becomes uncommitted determines the McClellan points award for multiple corps the next turn. Thanks in advance! Later, Jeff ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 166 Thu Apr 13, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 19:04 EDT Jeff: The corps would become uncommitted immediately upon the player deciding he had fulfilled his own orders. grey area? Subject to abuse? Yes, but there it is. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 167 Thu Apr 13, 1995 R.RUBIN8 [Rich Rubin] at 19:31 EDT Yom Kippur has arrived, and just in time for Passover!!! Nice touch, gang! Who wants to be the first to PBEM it? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 168 Thu Apr 13, 1995 R.SAVAGE6 [Rich] at 21:30 EDT Hey Guys, It seems like the SCS game of Yom Kippur is out. Is there anyway we could get a quickie review, such as how many counters, maps, what unit level, the solitaire playability, etc? I know everyone who plays the SCS series has been waiting for this one for a while, and we'd like an honest appraisal of the product, before we go out and buy it anyway. . Anyone with a copy, throw a few words up here about what the latest effort from the Gamers is all about! Thanks, Rich ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 170 Fri Apr 14, 1995 S.CLARKE8 [Scott] at 22:51 EDT I'd like to hear some comments on Yom Kippur as well. I was wondering what people thought about the Gamer's Napoleanic series (all one game of it so far I realize). Sounds like it would be easy enough to start into since it is derived from the CWB series. I was curious as to how other people like it. Haven't heard much discussion on it here. Scott ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 171 Sat Apr 15, 1995 P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog] at 00:40 EDT Hello, Does anybody reading this know of any good, detailed books on Soviet arty and small unit tactics on the Eastern Front? I am having a rather tough time finding any facts. Thanks a bunch. Scott, I am under the impresion that the NBS cavalry charge rules leave something to be desired. The Austerlitz situation is rather unbalanced except for the Allied ability to create a grand battery. If you send me your phone number or call 722-1296, I promise you can come over and see my YK as soon as it arrives. To Ardennes fans, A friend of mine just sent me a nice Ardennes planning map from the Fall 94 (Issue 41) of the Canadian Wargamers Journal. It displays a stylized map w/ VP's and a German marginal line as well as all Allied reinforcements by turn, hex and number of steps. The also give it a very positive review. Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 172 Sat Apr 15, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 08:33 EDT The NBS cavalry stuff was a little clumsy in it's first iteration. NBS 2nd ed., out in september with MARENGO, has cleaned it up a lot, mechanically. AUSTERLITZ seems quite unbalanced, and many people have told us that - the only problem is, half of them say the French can't win, and the other half say the Allies can't win.:) I suspect it's balanced just fine. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 173 Sat Apr 15, 1995 J.STORMES1 [James] at 09:44 EDT Perry's mention of ARDENNES reminded me of a question that I have wanted to ask ever since I set up scenario 5.1, Kampfgruppe Peiper, for the first time. Many of the German infantry in the northern sector set up in positions already adjacent to the American defenders, from which they can infiltrate far behind the American positions. This seems unreasonable to me, and would not be possible if the German infantry had to move into their initial attack positions, rather than set up in them. What do other, more experienced players of ARDENNES think about the initial setup of the German infantry? How about the designer (Dean)? Is there a problem, or am I imagining it? James ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 174 Sat Apr 15, 1995 J.BEHAN1 [Jeff] at 11:22 EDT Yom Kipper inquires: I have yet to play or even punch out this one yet, but here is my impression: Components: 1- 22"x34" map. The Suez Canal runs the length of the 34". Five different terrian features (Open, Rough, Sand Dune, Swamp, & Sea) are shown. The Rough hexes have sort of a 3D shading to them that I haven't seen on other Gamers maps. The map is first rate as expected. 280 counters. If you have seen the couters for NBPTD, ITQF II, or AH then you now the style. The newest Gamers counters are high quality with a glossy shean finish. The Israelis are depicted in the light blue color of their flag (a pretty blue at that, IMHO). The Egyptians colors are a variety of browns and oranges. The Arab allies even have counters for Kuwait, Morocco, & PLO formations. Armor units on both side are identified by a tank siloette, while the other units are identified with standard NATO symbols. Special counters are included for Bar Lev forts, SAM batteries, and Air Units. Rules: The Standard Combat Series have not changed since their Ardennes incarnation. I won't get into too much detail, but game specific rules include: Engineer & HQ units, Disorganized effect from barrage, SAM's, Airmobile Movement, Air Units, Suez Canal & Bridging, Superpower intervention, Bar Lev Forts, ATGM's (SAGGERS), and others. Scenarios include four full length scenarios and two smaller scenarios. Any specific question? Throw them my way and I'll do my best, but I'll bet Dean or somebody who's played this thing could give you a better answer. Later, Jeff ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 175 Sat Apr 15, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 13:54 EDT Well, so I'm biased. YK, however, is an excellent scramble in the dunes. Neither side has a waltz, though the Israelis appear deceptively easy. About mid- game, the Israel player figures he's got this thing made, given the mobility and firepower of his forces. Then comes the end-game, and the sober realisation that he's still got a lot to do, and canal crossings are not that easy. Timing is critical. I like this one so much I'm already thinking of variant ideas, which I hope to put together as a short article soon. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 177 Sat Apr 15, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 18:38 EDT Jim: Given the heavy forest terrain, lack of supply, EZOCs and the _wonderful_ movement allowance of those VG units, about how far do you think they are going to get? Two hexes comes to mind...and all in a direction that matters not to the overall German offensive. It won't be long before the US infantry pouring onto the map from the north map edge seals those guys off forever (heck, they can't _attack_ their way out of a paper bag...). Jeff: Thanks for the blurb on YK...I hope to hear your report on how it plays soon... Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 178 Sat Apr 15, 1995 C.CHATTO [Carl] at 21:26 EDT Dave, Thanks for your reply re CWB tables. I can see why you won't leap to change a series' rules, even though it has some appeal to me personally. BTW, i got a chance to pick up BRS for half price at alocal store the other day, and I'm looking forward to a chance to try it. Carl ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 179 Sat Apr 15, 1995 R.RUBIN8 [Rich Rubin] at 21:47 EDT Yom Kippur: 1 + 2 = ? Game Rules #2.5 (p6) says: "the Israelis could build exactly two bridges in addition to the PCB bridge. Therefore, the Israeli player can only have ONE of his engineer units function as a bridge at any one time." That makes PCB + 1. Is the RULE right, or the explanation? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 180 Sun Apr 16, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 05:38 EDT Sorry asking some pretty silly questions guys regarding Omaha using TCS 3.0: 1)Where exactly does the beach end? At the landmine/wire hexes, the first contour line, the shaded beige area, shingle hexes etc or where? 2)Can AT guns fire at soft targets(ie. infantry)? Our house rules will be to halve AT guns firing at infantry and other soft targets with the exception of the 88mm gun since they could fire HE. If AT guns can fire at infantry, what is the max range? Thanks ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 181 Sun Apr 16, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 08:18 EDT Rich Rubin Each Bridge unit in YK represents two actual bridges. Hence your confusion. S. Cat Trying for the Beach Club, eh? I must warn you, there's some pretty surly cabana boys... The Beach ends at the Shingle. AT guns can fire at Infantry, they are halved, (and you're rule about 88's is a good one) and their max range is equal to the printed, Nominal range. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 182 Sun Apr 16, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:11 EDT Rich R: Dave is correct, but just so its really clear--One engineer plus the PCB. (That equals three actual bridges, but maybe that is the wrong thing to bring up :). Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 183 Sun Apr 16, 1995 J.PYLE3 [Jim] at 09:17 EDT Finally giving TCS a try with GD,1940. Got a question about what kind of orders are allowed after reading the Player Notes. In the last paragraph of the French section of the Player Notes it says: "If the Germans are still disorganized in Stonne, then strike as soon as possible - you did write up the Op Sheets for the reinforcements at the beginning of the game so they could accre time off-map, didn't you?" At the beginning of the game, the French control Stonne so I don't think they would have written orders to have the reinforcemetns counter-attack Germans in Stonne. Any help and/or comments appreciated. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 184 Sun Apr 16, 1995 J.STORMES1 [James] at 11:05 EDT Dean, I see that I need to be more specific and precise in my observations. The initial position of 394/99 in B53.09 allows German infantry units from 12 VG and 3 FJ to infiltrate using the road through B51.09 and B52.09, expending movement points for entering only one EZOC. For example, 27 Fus/12 VG can move from B52.08 to B55.17 (Buetgenbach), capturing the US supply dump in B52.11 (Honsfeld). Other units can reach Buellingen and approach Ambleve from the north and east. If the captured US supply dump is a dummy, the German units can be supplied from a German supply unit in B51.09, provided that a German unit occupies B52.09 to negate the EZOC in this hex. Is it reasonable for the Germans to be able to infiltrate the American position to this extent? Is it a good move on their part? James P.S. I prefer to be called "James", not "Jim". It may seem formal to others, but not to me. My friends and family call me "James". ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 185 Sun Apr 16, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 14:26 EDT James (sorry about the name screw up, I'll respect your wishes): The movement you describe is right through the Losheim Gap, which is (situationally, anyway) quite reasonable. I would question the usefulness of the movement toward greater German goals as I feel that infantry can accomplish more good by working toward destroying the 394 Inf Rgt (through a combination of barrage, attack, and unit positions so as to leave the road clear for the exploitation movement of the SS Panzers). I think the SS will be able to flood the Ambleve valley in the first two turns such that they hold the (doubtfully real) dump at Buellingen and seal the northern shoulder along the Warche River to keep the Amis out. I'd rather not have to pass through the VG infantry with the tanks after the race begins, if they help blow the hole for the tanks, the armor will be able to pass through them right away--before they have the chance to become mobile road blocks when things get dicier further forward. What do you do with the 12 SS? I habitually run then into the plain west of B54.10 where they go tooth and nail with the Americans, but never seem to be able to contribute all that much to the drive further west. I think there is more they can accomplish and haven't found away to do so without withdrawing them and shuffling them out of the war for a turn or two to get them into a more useful stance...seems like a lot of wasted effort to get the use out of a strong armored formation. Jim Pyle: The orders the French would have would be something to the effect of "Go to Stonne and occupy the town to keep the Germans out...attack your way in if need be". I think that is pretty reasonable given the extreme level of confusion existing in the French command...they probably don't know who own's Stonne at the time they issued the orders for the reinforcements to move and I doubt they would be willing to wager that conditions won't change before the troops get there. So, the orders must cover reasonable contigencies--such as the Germans gaining control of the town before the French get there. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 186 Sun Apr 16, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 17:31 EDT Thanks Dave. The beach edge wasn't to clear to me. yes I didn't realize just how small the first wave is for the Americans. ANd there are a lot of those fiesty little Germans. The landings will be like a flea on an elephant. UGH! ------------ Category 4, Topic 49 Message 117 Tue Apr 18, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:51 EDT HEY !!! What happpened to our TOPIC ?????? (43, that is)...it seems to have disappeared! Confused, Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 49 Message 118 Tue Apr 18, 1995 L.PRATT [LRP] at 18:59 EDT I listed the other topics in cat 4 and under topic 2's title is number 43. Maybe some idiot tried to start a new topic with the number 43 ans somehow killed the current GAMERS topic. I am most perturbed. ------------ Category 4, Topic 49 Message 119 Tue Apr 18, 1995 W.ARNSDORF [MARTY] at 20:35 EDT Who killed the Gamers topic? Should we start another topic to discuss the demise of a topic? Received Yom Kippur today, and it is a very impressive package. Excellent work. It also must set a record for most playtesters! :) Marty ------------ Category 4, Topic 49 Message 120 Tue Apr 18, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 20:44 EDT Silenced, in the prime of life!! This is an outrage! Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 49 Message 121 Tue Apr 18, 1995 W.ARNSDORF [MARTY] at 21:06 EDT Perhaps Dean rolled a SYR on the morale table? Now that we have to use the OCS topic, perhaps Mr. Fortner can peer over all those 1040's, 1099's, and Schedule C's to give us a brief hello? Deadline was yesterday, Keith. :) Marty ------------ Category 4, Topic 49 Message 122 Tue Apr 18, 1995 R.OCONNOR6 [Bob O] at 21:31 EDT I heard it was GMT doing some behind the scenes espionage. ;) bob ------------ Category 4, Topic 49 Message 123 Wed Apr 19, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:08 EDT Bob: I knew it...Gene has his scaly tentacles into _everything_ :) All: Scorpia was kind enough to bring back the topic from the Twighlight Zone...fear not about the "186 new messege" warning, all but the last 16 were cleaned out for us, so we don't have to review the last month's stuff...there will be a quiz, though. Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 187 Tue Apr 18, 1995 SCORPIA at 22:57 EDT Folks, somehow, this topic was purged (don't ask; it's known to happen now and then). Fortunately, I was able to bring it back intact. Unfortunately, since it was "gone", everyone's pointers went with it. That made all the messages here (186) "new" to everyone. To get around that, I have temporarily deleted all but the last 16 messages, so you won't be inundated with "new" stuff you've already seen. After a week or so, to give everyone time to catch up, we'll restore the deleted posts. My apologies for any inconvenience this may cause you. Best, - Scorpia ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 188 Wed Apr 19, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:02 EDT Thanks, Scorpia. Anyone crack out their Yom Kippur game over the weekend and give it a whirl? I'm interested in hearing how it went (as are others here who want to know before they buy). I'm also sure the fact that Dave and I love the game and have had a blast with it doesn't carry much weight :) Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 189 Wed Apr 19, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 17:30 EDT I'm fiddling around with a variant that allows the Egyptians to commit both the GHQ and Exploit reserve on turn one - in exchange for about doubling the VP needed to win. Now the Arabs are fighting for control of the far end of the map, beyond their sam umbrella, and having a real slugfest with the Israelis. I'm not sure if the Egyptians can win this kind of scenario, but they can bring to bear a lot of power. Their main disadvantages are the extra Israeli planes available by not bothering with SAM suppression, and fighting so far forward of their slow-moving artillery. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 190 Thu Apr 20, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:48 EDT Dave: Gee, it seems the little twightlight zone trip of our topic (with the resulting bogus "186 New Msg" header) has really scared off everyone... Scorpia: Is it possible to fix the header info for this topic such that the "Boy, I don't want to wade through 186 msgs" warning fits the 16 actual posts??? Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 191 Thu Apr 20, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 23:55 EDT Dean, I'm playing a solitaire game of Yom Kippur right now. I hope to play face to face this weekend. (First we'll have to wrap up the Afrika game we have going. I've just introduced this opponent to the SCS.) I have to re-learn the tactics, especially the Egyptian. I got quite used to playing the early playtest version. That version had no Egyptian exploitation, Bar-Lev reduction table, and TWO Israeli barrage phases! I think I played the Egyptians too cautiously this time. I look at the attack factors on those Israeli armored units and I want to get across the canal, grab the two Israeli VP hexes (Zrakor and the Chineese Farm) and turn turtle as the Egyptian. It's turn 4 and i've had to pull the Egyptian 3rd Army units back across the canal because of the thrashing they've taken at the hands of Sharon. The Israeli's have regained Zrakor and the Egyptian Exploitation Reserve is in. In a 'what the hell' move I drove Israeli armor through the Egyptian lines and parked on the east bank end of the Egyptian 2nd Army bridge. The Egyptians easily eliminated the two Israeli armored units. This leads me to think that the Egyptians may be able to hurt those 1 step Israeli armor units more easily than I thought. Especially while the ATGM rule is in effect. Like I said, I've got some learning to do yet. I'm not ready to comment on play balance or the Victory conditions yet because of the learning curve. However, (after I said I wouldn't comment on Victory conditions) my initial impression as I looked at the map and saw the Israeli VP's at Zrakor and the Chineese farm was that this was probably going to be a hell of fight for both sides. Those Egyptian VP hexes are SO far away from the canal! Then, as Sharon beat up the 3rd Army I thought that the Egyptians will almost always have to shoot for a draw. After all, those Egyptian VP hexes are SO far away from the canal! Now that I've looked at how much of the Israeli strength is in 1 step armored units I have to re-think the Egyptian chances. But those Egyptian VP hexes are, well - you know. Anyhow, to wrap this up I think the map and pieces are great (I'm still thinking about the sand dunes though). I really like how you handled the Israeli air and SAM supression, the CEASE-fire, and the PCB bridge. I always thought this game would make a great tounament game I don't think I'll be disappointed. Ken P.S. I am sorry you didn't include the extensive 'how to play' player notes but I also agree with your reasoning as to why. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 192 Fri Apr 21, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 12:36 EDT Ken: The VP hexes for the Israelis were added to the Israeli side of the canal were added when playtesting showed a bit of a lean _toward_ the Egyptians... Yes, the entry hex Egyptian VPs are very far away and probably out of reach, but the game will be _won_ over Tasa, the VPs just beyond the dune line, and the one up on or around Chirchill (I don't have the map in front of me...) The Israelis _are_ both very powerful _and_ very fragile (although it is maddening...to the Egyptian, anyway) to watch the tank recovery table in action. The Egyptains are being played incorrectly if they are cowering in terror at the sight of blue counters...they are a much better army than that (although they have their own weaknesses which can be exploited). In summary, without the two Israeli VP hexes east of the canal, the game actually leans toward the Egyptian...with them its pretty well balanced (I'd say as closely as any of our other games or more so...if for no other reason than the dozens of playtest games that were played to check it out and those with a whole host of different players. Have fun and let us know how it goes...have your Arabs go beat up on those blue guys... :) Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 193 Sat Apr 22, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 00:58 EDT Dean, Thanks for the Yom Kippur comments. You're absolutely right of course about the Egyptians being mishandled if they don't reach out for more than just getting across the canal. As far as those far away Egyptian VP hexes, it was just my poor attempt at a little levity. Well, back to the game! Ken P.S. I did catch my spelling error ( Chineese instead of Chinese ). Oops. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 194 Sat Apr 22, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 18:01 EDT Ooops silly me asking that 88mm AT question. Just found it in the rules for Omaha. I feel like such a heel. BTW, could someone explain the leader selection again for the Omaha game for the Americans? We have setup the initial 3 assault waves and I believe we cannot setup the transport wave til later. However the rules seem a bit sketchy as to when and where to select and place leaders. Thanks ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 195 Sat Apr 22, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 20:40 EDT S. Cat: Leader selection is pretty easy. Take all the leaders who have units landing in any of the first three waves. Put them in a cup. then pick blindly, based on the die roll per the right scenarios, out of that cup until you have the right number of leaders. The leaders so picked can arrive with any of their subordinate units. For instance, Taylor, commander of the 16th, can arrive with any member of the 16th Regiment. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 196 Sun Apr 23, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 04:41 EDT So you don't pick leaders then for units arriving during transport waves then? Only for the assualt waves? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 197 Sun Apr 23, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 08:07 EDT Oops. You do pick leaders for the first transport wave, as well. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 199 Sun Apr 23, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 15:06 EDT Yes but Dave you can't pick leaders for the transport waves since you can't plan them until like a couple hours later after the first waves hit. Hence you'd be picking leaders of units of who knows what organization. I was kind of confused by that rule. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 200 Sun Apr 23, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 17:56 EDT Dean: DEDICATED Gamer-ites (?) would be happy to wade through them again :-) Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 201 Sun Apr 23, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 18:22 EDT See the dangers of responding from the hip on an old game? I'll check the discrepency and get back with an answer. BTW, made good progress on 7 Days today. The first of the trio is done, and ready to go see Dean. I knocked off a lot of work on the 2nd in the trilogy, SEVEN PINES, as well. Soon I'll turn this sucker over to Dean, and you all can bug him about the release date.:) Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 202 Sun Apr 23, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 19:10 EDT Dave: Glad to hear you're moving forward on THE SEVEN DAYS with all deliberate speed. I'm looking forward to SON OF THUNDER AT THE CROSSROADS. Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 203 Sun Apr 23, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 22:58 EDT After a high-level confab (replete with muttered "what the f--- do we do now?" comments) I have the answer to our OMAHA conundrum. The rules are a little misleading. You may actually plan a transport landing earlier than 1 hour before, just not later. Hence, you may plan the first transport landing at start, and thereby include its leaders. Or, you could ignore the 1st transport landing, and just concentrate on the first three waves, if you so desire. Either way will have little impact on the overall course of the game. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 204 Mon Apr 24, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 03:09 EDT Ahhhh thanks Dave. Dean, expect a call from Hans Von Stockhausen sometime next week regarding even more questions on Omaha. We finally made it to the start of the second assault wave. One of things nagging Hans was why the pill boxes got downgraded from 6 to 4. Of course he's playing the Germans and got most of his pillboxes shot up where we landed. HEHEHE I'd post more questions here but I feel I caused enough trouble here. I'll let Hans take most of the flak. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 205 Mon Apr 24, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 10:08 EDT Sorry for the delay...went on a trip to KY (Lexington for you KY types out there) for my in-laws' 50th Wedding anniversery...good trip, bad weather... Ken: Go get 'em! Dave: Nice waffle...glad you got it tied down... Per Dog: The displacing player can _choose_ to destroy the trucks/wagons instead (the only sensible course of action when the pocket consists of three whole hexes...). My standard approach to the issue of initiative is to invarialbly move second _unless and only unless_ the game looks like it can be _won_ by taking the double move (a point of timing which rarely occurs...except in the minds of players who look at a situation, convince themselves they have lost, and quit...) I'd almost go as far as to say _never_ make yourself go first...but there are those rare situations where you _can_ end it all right now if you do take the move. Generally, it is better to move second. I'd say continue the advance toward Rostov...S-grad will be a diversion of effort to you at this point (its not like you won't get it eventually, right?) Whereas you can keep the Nazis reacting to your operations on the Donets, attacks on S-grad will do nothing to them except give them a breather in which to build up. You can beleive the Germans have written off the pocket already...they will welcome any extra effort you apply against it. Mark: I understand the hardcore will read all of them again, I just don't think they should have to! :) (One can only take so much punishment...) S-Cat: The Pill Boxes were downgraded from 6 because when the 3.0 rules came out we found that their original values made them impregnable. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 206 Mon Apr 24, 1995 M.LOCHTEFEL1 at 22:24 EDT I just wanted to throw an update of our EatG campaign. We just started Turn 14 and I am playing the Russians. The Russians got spanked in the North over the last couple of turns. We routed the Germans up there and tried to form a line. A line that quickly got chewed up by German Panzer divisions. I learned very quickly how the Germans can annihilate you with the Luftwaffe and exploitation move. Needless to say, what few Soviets were alive (and I mean few) got across the river quickly. The German player still has his Panzer divisions up in the North, while I have had to push what I could to reinforce the North. I don't think the Germans can keep that many units in the North with all of the units that are moving in the South. I have continued to attack Stalingrad. That city is harder to take than I thought. With those 4 and 5 action ratings and the level three hedgehogs, I'm lucky to make him lose more than two steps. Stalingrad will fall by Turn 18. Why? Because I keep bringing back the 2-4-6 Motorcycle units. They're great for action ratings and taking losses. The South looks easy enough to take. It will be even easier to take once I get the rail lines opened up through Stalingrad. I'm waiting to see if the Germans reallocate their divisions towards the southern flank. BTW, I'm looking forward to picking up a copy of YK this week. Dean, hats off to you for the SCS. Mike L. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 208 Tue Apr 25, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 01:08 EDT Sure thing but I managed to get Hans to write all his questions down. He said he wanted to talk to the Gamers directly. I told him I'd upload them here but guess he's lonely and wants to talk to someone real. Perr Dog - We are keeping track of what is going on in this game using 3.0 rules and we will be happy to send you stuff personally. Thanks Dean oh and we just made a house ruling on that leader selection thing. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 209 Tue Apr 25, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:55 EDT Mike L: Sounds like you guys are having a nice wide open game of EATG...have fun and keep us posted. Perry: I thought we already published an extended article about the siren's song of letting yourself go first ? :) S.Cat: Hans called yesterday to cry in his beer about his dead pillboxes...I answered his questions and for his edification he is right, the shingle breach at B27.23 _is_ useless...use the one at B22.22 (5 hexes away) instead. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 210 Tue Apr 25, 1995 W.ARNSDORF [MARTY] at 19:23 EDT I have discovered a discrepency in the rules for April's Harvest. The rules concerning Van Dorns Corps states that the units start the game on the map, but the order of arrival lists them as reinforcements. Which one is correct? Marty ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 211 Tue Apr 25, 1995 C.DAVIS [charles] at 21:24 EDT Question about CWB when you have more than 1 artillery battery firing into a hex can you have more than 5 points worth of guns count toward fire combat? thus with 2 5 strength batteries firing at range 1 is the fire points from this 5 or 10? Also which games have been updated to 2nd Edition? Is SHiloh released yet? And how is the Wilderness game? chuck ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 212 Tue Apr 25, 1995 G.ROBERTS21 [MUKKA MUKKA] at 21:51 EDT I also noticed the discrepancies with VanDorn's Corps in April Harvest. Since I'm currently Marty's opponent and and in a whole lot of trouble, except for a heroic stand by the 1st Division in the woods south of the Water Oaks Pond, I feel that the 0800 reinforcement time is soon enough for the arrival of VanDorn! Greg ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 213 Wed Apr 26, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 01:08 EDT Well Hans has lots of beer to cry on..hehehe. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 214 Wed Apr 26, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 10:02 EDT Marty & Mukka Mukka (!): 0800 is correct. (I'll have to get the story on your handle some day. Chuck: Shiloh came out in March. Bloody Roads South (Wilderness) is out of print, but should be able to be had in numerous stores still. Yes, you can have more than 5 gun points contribute to a combat...provided they are not firing _from_ the same hex. Given different firing locations, they all can add to the combat. I'll be gone until Tuesday next week as I'm going to visit ole WooPoo U and attend the POINTCON convention...hope to see some of you there. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 215 Thu Apr 27, 1995 J.BYRNE2 [Jim Byrne] at 20:04 EDT Dean, Dave, Mark et al. I remember reading a series of exchanges regarding the qualities, or lack thereof, of various historians, professional and otherwise. I particularily recall the discussion of David Irving, who came in for considerable criticism for his views on the holocaust and whose other writings were then brought into question. Today I had the pleasure of listening to John Keegan give an interview prior to delivering the Barbara Frum Lecture at the CBC Centre in downtown Toronto. In this interview he was asked his opinion of David Irving. His response was, and I quote; "David Irving is an outstanding historian... he is a walking encyclopaedia of information on the details of the workings of the Third Reich... He is the only man alive who has read all of their diaries, all of their papers, has interviewed all of their widows, associates and assistants..." When the interviewer, who was visibly shaken by this forthright response, queried Mr. Keegan about Irving's views on the holocaust he replied: "Oh, he's quite blamy on the subject, a dangerous man... but that has no bearing at all on the quality or value of his work..." Mr. Keegan then when on to make a remark, which unfortunately I have lost my notes on, regarding the dangers of discounting work simply because a person espouses an unpopular opinion in an unrelated area. For your information. JBB ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 216 Thu Apr 27, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 23:32 EDT You will find in most reviews of Irving's works, an evenhanded discussion of their strengths and weaknesses. Or at least, I have. Keegan's error was in his first phrase: "David Irving is an outstanding historian." Irving is not; outstanding historians do not deliberately distort sources or ignore information contrary to their view. What David Irving is outstanding in is _research_. I think most historians are very willing to give him full marks as an extremely energetic researcher who is not only tireless but has brought new documents to light. And, because of his pro-Nazi sensibilities, he has also been given access to papers and interviews by ex- Nazis and their descendants, where other researchers would not have. But you can't call someone who denies that Jews were ever gassed at Auschwitz an "oustanding historian." ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 217 Fri Apr 28, 1995 P.POMERANTZ1 [Phil] at 00:59 EDT Mark, Hear, hear! Phil ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 218 Fri Apr 28, 1995 J.BYRNE2 [Jim Byrne] at 01:23 EDT Mark, Then you'll just have to write Mr. Keegan and tell him he was wrong. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 219 Fri Apr 28, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 20:07 EDT Mr. Keegan is so frequently wrong about things that he hardly needs me to inform him of yet one more mistake. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 220 Sat Apr 29, 1995 E.CAYLOR [Drifter] at 21:22 EDT My first try at Shiloh is over. I had reported on this a few times in early April. At the end of the first day, USA KIA stood at 104, and stragglers at 100. The CSA count was 80 KIA and 35 stragglers. For day one victory points, the CSA needs 9 to win and had 8, if they could have taken the 2 point hex at the north end of the Savannah Road, they would have won; however, the extremely early arrival of the Army of the Ohio stopped that. For the USA, McClernand was wounded, as was his replacement, and all 4 of his units wrecked, Hurlbut, Sherman, and Prentiss were all wrecked so badly that even a day of straggler recovery would make them ineffective. The Army of the Ohio was lightly hit, and made a strong defensive stand south and west of Pittsburg landing. The CSA 2nd Corps is basically wrecked, but gave out more than twice as many losses as it recieved...quite a lot in this system. 1st and 3rd Corps can defend for a while, but are too hurt to sustain an offensive. The reserve Corps is only very lightly hit. Although the CSA lost in respect to the 1st day scenario conditions, I feel the damage they dished out and the fact that they had to deal with The Army of the Ohio arriving FAR earlier than expected would actually give them the win. Had the Ohio arrived at the hisorical time, the CSA would probably have been able to gobble up FIVE more victory points. The Ohio was about all that kept the CSA reserve Corps from getting to within two or three hexes of the landing itself. However, with the fact that the USA 3rd and 4th divisions, and the vast majority of the Army of the Ohio are untouched, day 2 does not bode well for the CSA. So I picked up all the pieces and will start again in mid-May. This is one great game. ---Ed Caylor (Drifter) ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 221 Sat Apr 29, 1995 D.FOXMAN [Dan] at 22:08 EDT I've just finished playing "Yom Kippur" and have a couple of questions on the SAMs. 1) Why do the Israelis do such a good job at SAM suppresion? It was my understanding that the SA-6 was a real shock to them since their RHAW gear could not detect its radar. I would think they would roll on the 0 column on at least turn 1, regardless of supressors. 2) HAWK with an engagement range of 24 miles? Not on its best day! Does this counter represent multiple batteries spread out around the area or is this just play balance? All in all I thought this was a great game game, though running those fragile Egyptian units out from under the SAM umbrella is nerve wracking! You almost have to give up the 2 VPs and go for the "Schnell Abdul" variant! Are there any plans to take the system into the Golan? Thanks! Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 222 Sun Apr 30, 1995 JCHARBONNEAU at 19:16 EDT To dean Since john Leggat has bailed out of GEnie he wanted to let you know that he just finished the campaign scenario of EATG last night up here in NH with some other club members and won a sudden death Soviet victory on GT7 He said he'd be happy to show you guys how its done at Origins --John-- ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 223 Sun Apr 30, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 21:00 EDT Sorry, Mark, I'll have to give much more weight to Mr. Keegan's Opinion than yours... I trust you realize exactly how pretentious that last comment sounded. The entire David Irving discussion was unfortunate in that I think Dean and I let our "opponents frame the debate," to steal a line from the political sphere. :) I don't like Irving's opinion on the Holocaust any more than most - what I did (and I think Dean will agree) like about HITLER'S WAR was that it tended to spread the blame around to a wider group than is usually the case, and did a good job of presenting an alternative to the German Generals' argument that it was all Hitler's fault. By BLAME, I'm talking about a the strictly military decision-making, things like Barbarossa, the Kiev diversion, Kursk, etc. I have noticed that tendency to reject an entire body of work because of one disagreeable (or even completely Balmy) idea. I'm much more of a browser, in that I read them all, keep the good ideas, and trash the goofy ones. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 224 Sun Apr 30, 1995 O.SOGARD [SOGARD] at 23:02 EDT Since the discussion of Keegan - Irving and Hitler has wandered over several topics, I would direct the reader's attention to the May 1, 1995, edition of THE NEW YORKER. It contains two interesting articles. In the "A Reporter At Large" section, Ron Rosenbaum writes "Explaining Hitler" which is a very good survey of the historians who have attempted this task (principally Hugh Trevor-Roper and Alan Bullock but Irving and others are covered). The second article is entitled a "Letter from Berchtesgaden - Beauty and the Beast" by Philip Hamburger. Both of the articles are well written and informative with a couple of tidbits of which I was unaware. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 225 Mon May 01, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 01:40 EDT You needn't accept my opinion on Keegan. You might turn elsewhere, such as to some of the devastating reviews that Keegan's _History of Warfare_ has suffered. I particularly liked Michael Howard's review in, as I recall, the New York Times. Some historians have written entire articles taking the book to task for its errors. In casual conversations with military historians (and an anthropologist), I found the standard reaction to be "The other sections seemed interesting, but boy, did he mess up my era!" If you want to see debunking of the German Generals, you can get it with a lot more reliability than something by Irving. For instance, Gerhard Weinberg does an excellent job at it. FWIW, the Irving books with the worst reputation are HITLER'S WAR and CHURCHILL'S WAR. His biography of Rommel was reasonably well-received; his biography of Goering tended to be criticized. His work _The War Between the Generals_ is simply a gossip book (and unannotated, as I recall, though it's been a while since I've looked at it). ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 226 Mon May 01, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 17:54 EDT Mark, >You needn't accept my opinion on Keegan... I think that proves my point - Taking one example and trashing an entire body of work. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 227 Mon May 01, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 17:56 EDT Just got back from POINTCON...had a good time, got to play a bunch, saw Ed Wimble playtesting 4th edition La Batt rules, slept very little... I think I was fully convinced in the last David Irving discussion that I wanted no part of the guy, so I have little to add to Irving, Part Deux... I'm warm and cold about Keegan...I liked THE FACE OF BATTLE a lot, and SIX ARMIES IN NORMANDY somewhat, some of his other (later) works were...shall we say...somewhat dry. Ed: Planning the summer of 62 invasion of Kentucky, are we? :) Luckily for lovers of the Union...Buell again saved the day. Dan: I've been egging Al Sandrick on into making a Golan game...he remains partially committed (his real life work concerns are keeping him from it) I'll keep after him... :) The HAWK is a battalion unit...its batteries are scattered around the counter's location. The biggest effect of the SAM zone on the Israeli air force is not the literal effects you see in terms of the points available in the zone etc., but the limited number of air points available at all. It did not take the IAF several days to mobilize as the game would seem to say, the full number of air points would have been available perhaps as early as the end of the first day...but the player cannot make use of those points as they are negated right out of the game by the SAMs...air points dedicated to SAM suppression represent _even more_ overhead dedicated to the effort (on top of what is going on behind the scenes. John: Tell 'im its a date...I'm sure we can talk Keith Fortner into taking the time to slice JL's Russians up for him :) Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 228 Mon May 01, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 18:08 EDT Dave, I mentioned THE HISTORY OF WARFARE because it was his latest book and because I didn't want to post a retrospective on the man's career. Basically, Keegan is a one-book wonder, and that one book was a long time ago. Virtually all of his other books--SIX ARMIES, MASK OF COMMAND, PRICE OF ADMIRALTY--have been mediocre or, like his history of the Second World War, lightweight. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 229 Mon May 01, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 20:44 EDT Dean, Dave and others... I liked Keegan's THE FACE OF BATTLE quite a lot. It's one of those books that I find myself going back to every so often. I wish he'd put something in there about the ACW... THE PRICE OF ADMIRALTY came out when I was still in the Navy and a lot of us Junior Officers read it. I enjoyed it thoroughly. Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 230 Mon May 01, 1995 B.BONNEVIER [AXEMAN] at 21:14 EDT A few questions after my first TCS (solo GD40) experience. 1) 27.2 Illumination - is the "daylight" effect limited to units within the 5 hex radius, or would a unit firing from outside the Illum area at a target within the area fire as if in daylight? 2) 8.0 Line of Sight - does the LOS have to actually pass through a map symbol (e.g., buildings or woods) to be blocked, or just through the hex containing the obstructing symbol? 3) 10.0 Losses - how many steps does a B defense unit absorb? I guessed 1, but wasn't sure since carriers seem to represent several vehicles. Thanks for the help. The game was lots of fun - I've had all of the TCS series for about a year, but only just had a chance to try one. Looking forward to hitting the jungle (or perhaps the silk) ... ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 231 Mon May 01, 1995 P.POMERANTZ1 [Phil] at 23:26 EDT Mark, I really liked The Face of Battle, but have been disappointed ever since. I don't think i will get another one of his books. His history of WWII was uninspired, on the opposite end of the scale of Weinberg's magnum opus, which in my unlettered opinion, is The definitive history of the big one. Phil ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 232 Tue May 02, 1995 W.GRAVES2 [Wig] at 00:28 EDT Dean, GD'41 is done and headed your way. It must be ready for print as it already has the PERRY ANDRUS stamp of approval . Wig ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 233 Tue May 02, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 00:32 EDT Phil, your unlettered opinion is right on the mark, IMO. By the way, I got to meet Weinberg last week. He was the keynote speaker at a military history conference here at Ohio State University. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 234 Tue May 02, 1995 P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog] at 00:43 EDT Axeman, TCS answers - unofficial. 1) Illum is the target and if the target unit is under illum then no -1 shift. 2) I believe the LOS rules mention that the LOS has to pass thru obstructing the symbol to be blocked. I know that is the intent. 3) B defense units absorb 1 step when hit by area fire. They don't last long are not good for much. If you played the first scenario, try it again w/ the historical forces. Have the 3rd battalion and the tanks sit tight and do nothing. This is how Wig plays the scenario. Next, do the 0900 French counterattack. Lots of options as the German left flank is wide open. I use a company of H-39's to stiffen the reservists. Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 236 Tue May 02, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 07:56 EDT Axeman: Perry's answers were right on target and can be annointed "official" :) Wig: Looking forward to it...how goes GD'42? Today (among other things...) I get to play mechanic and install the roller convayor system which takes the games away from the Boss Hog to the packing area...this is only significant if you happen to be aware of my limited mechanical skills. Dave: Wait till ya see the warehouse this weekend...I wish I could show the facitility to all those who say nobody can make a living in wargaming :) Enjoy, Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 237 Tue May 02, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 17:44 EDT At last, we've arrived...the 30 games-a-minute Boss Hog Shrinkwrapper is in place, and we now truly have a "Proud Monster." Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 238 Tue May 02, 1995 W.ARNSDORF [MARTY] at 18:13 EDT Seems that since the collating process is so much easier, you should cut the burritto run for the collators. Can't let the masses have to much, you know! Marty ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 239 Tue May 02, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 18:29 EDT Dave: 30 games a minute is the clock speed for the machine...haven't seen our collaters move that fast since the great Objective: Schmidt round up of 1990 (when manly colaters had to move quickly to avoid frostbite in the warehouse...). Marty: I wouldn't want to take away their burritos...its the only time I get a chance to get one these days...which brings up the golden rule of collation: Never EVER allow collaters the chance to eat burritos and THEN come back to collate some more...it brings on scenes not fit for small children and threatens to ruin the office's once-great plumbing system.... With that image in mind, I will now duck and cover... Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 240 Tue May 02, 1995 P.POMERANTZ1 [Phil] at 23:19 EDT Mark, What is Weinberg like in person? I really enjoyed his book, and i plan to reread it this year. I found his description of the great Scnell Heinz touring Western Russia looking for his future estate quite enlightening, especially since the german generals who survived the war are the most self- serving finger-pointing group of careerists I have ever seen, in a profession that encourages that kind of behavior among the lesser lights of the group. Guderian always found someone else to blame for his failure to defeat the russians. That is, anyone/anything other than himself or the Russians. Phil ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 241 Wed May 03, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 00:33 EDT Weinberg has the same wry sense of humor that he occasionally exhibits in his books. He is extremely wordy--ask him a question and expect to stay there for a long time--but I found him pleasant enough. The guy very clearly has a head on his shoulders. I've got a friend at Chapel Hill who works with him occasionally and also has good things to say about him. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 242 Wed May 03, 1995 W.PILON1 [bill] at 01:30 EDT Dean and Dave, Just picked up Yom Kippur. Fantastic game. One question, The rules say that the Cease Fire roll is made at the end of the turn. Then why have a cease fire die roll number for turn 12? If a cease fire is rolled on turn 12 can the players still blow it off and extend the game??? Also, based on a limited number of playings it appears that an early release of the Egyptian Explotation Reserve can cause the Israelis a lot of trouble. (In one game they released on turn 2, very ugly) Did you guys consider a sliding victory point scale and voluntary release? i.e. The Egyptions can release the Reserve any time but pay say 3VP's for turn 2-3, 2VP's for turn 4- 5, 1VP for turn 6-7, and its free after that. OF course if the Israeli's cross the canal then all bets are off and the whole schmeer is released for free. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 243 Wed May 03, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:35 EDT Bill: Nope, you are right...there isn't any point in rolling for a ceasefire on turn 12. I've seen the Exploit reserve released in every imaginable turn. It adds to the unpredictability of the game, giving both players something to look "forward" to. I also don't think elaborate VP costs for release are necessary. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 244 Wed May 03, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 17:51 EDT Schnell Heintz: I also found his real estate tours around Poland and Russia to be very illuminating on his character - helped put some of that "we were only following orders, we were just apolitical types" into context. Egypt Early Release: I've just completed a variant piece that would allow the Egyptians to get both the Exploit Reserve and the GHQ gang on turn _one_. Kind of a balls to the wall Arab plan, so to speak. So far, what test games have shown me is that it's _still_ hard for the Egyptians to dance out there at the Israeli end of the map, If the Israeli doesn't panic. On the whole, a turn two release doesn't capsize the situation much, tho late release means the Israeli player has to be extra careful about jumping the canal. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 245 Wed May 03, 1995 P.PERLA at 22:05 EDT Couldn't let the mention of The Price of Admiralty go by without a comment. Mr. Keegan may have had his facts straight on Trafalgar and Jutland, but the mistakes he made when dealing with US carrier ops in the Pacific were stunningly surprising. I have never regained my respect for him. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 246 Thu May 04, 1995 W.PILON1 [bill] at 00:03 EDT Dean, I am sure you're right about elaborate VP costs for release are unnecessary. But remember no "real" wargamer has ever lost a game that was "balanced,"(I know I haven't! ) I did do much better in the second go around though. You're right, the key for the Israeli's is don't panic, save the infantry, keep rolling for those armor replacements. You and Dave do an excellent job on everything I have seen from you'all. Even the series I don't like are excellent (TCS, and the Guderian's Blitzkreig stuff). Keep it up!! If you get a second please explain the rationale behind the German Supply counters not having to trace to the Eastern Board edge in Ardennes?? I am not arguing, just curious. Later, Bill ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 247 Thu May 04, 1995 W.LEE16 [Buck] at 08:44 EDT I'm in the middle of Shirer's "Rise and Fall..."; how does it rate for accuracy? Buck ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 248 Thu May 04, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 10:00 EDT Bill: Thank you for the kind comments...I will have to add one comment about YK...it takes more than just not panicing to use the Israelis well..it _requires_ the ability to avoid getting into toe to toe matches with the Egyptians. Not only must one avoid making it happen (guys who try to "garrision" the front in every other hex will be toast...), but it is also possible to just get hung up too close when you had every intention of getting away...I had that happen to my Israelis at Pointcon and got smoked because of it. (Besides that, it wasn't balanced :) ...the imbalance was generated by the Egyptian player running a better operation than I did... Ardennes Supply Units: The idea there was that these were self contained essentially mobile supply depots...which operated on their stocked stores even when replenishment wasn't possible. This also nicely aligns with the way US Supply Depots work so that there would be no need for two different sets of rules: one for US Dumps (US owned or even after capture) and another for the mobile German dumps. In retrospect, I oversimplified the matter when I made that decision. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 249 Thu May 04, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 18:40 EDT Shirer's RISE AND FALL was accurate enough for its time. It is dated by now, since such a tremendous amount of information has surfaced in the past several decades. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 251 Fri May 05, 1995 F.HOLLANDER [fth] at 19:47 EDT In EatG on Map C along the Don, there are a couple of river crossings that look similar to the other bridges, but don't have roads attached to them. I haven't found anything in the rules about them yet. What are they? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 252 Fri May 05, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 22:27 EDT fth: Are you looking at the pontoon bridges? They look a little different, but don't generally have roads going to them...they act just like any other bridge. These are pontoon bridges the Germans built during the summer and have (by this time) assumed something of a permanent character. If you are looking at something else, let me know. Perry: Dave P is here now and I've asked him to answer your question...remember, this is him, he's just using my machine: Perry, I think you're right about Naglee, let him come in at 9:00 a.m. on the 2nd. As for the rest, I chose not to include the half-hours in the variable schedule for simplicity's sake. The average arrival tmes aren't significantly effected by squeezing that extra 30 minutes out of the process. Dave Powell I wish everyone a great weekend. Dave an I are off to a game store to hawk games (and play YK). See ya Monday! Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 253 Sat May 06, 1995 F.HOLLANDER [fth] at 00:24 EDT Dean, I guess they must be pontoon bridges. I see that the Soviets have pontoon units that can act as bridges, but I don't see any rules about pontoons as permanent features. They also negate MP costs for the river, but not combat effects? fth ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 254 Sun May 07, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 00:38 EDT Dean, I noticed a few posts previous that you thought you oversimplified the German supply units in Ardennes. Since it is one of my favorite games I would be interested in hearing how you would modify the rules for those units. One problem I have noticed with the German supply units is the stacking value of 3. If you put a supply unit in a town, say Bastogne, that leaves the Germans with only 3 stacking points to defend the town . Towards the endgame it gets harder and harder to find a safe place for supply units while still defending crucial VP hexes. Not complaining, just stating a problem the Germans have to deal with. Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 255 Sun May 07, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 18:43 EDT fth: Correct. No rules for them, as far as the game is concerned they are regular bridges, nothing more and nothing less. Ken: The possible rules for those German supply units are simple and they only apply to the mobile supply units, not American dumps (captured or otherwise). To act as a supply unit, the German supply unit must be able to trace to the eats map edge along roads. If it can trace, it is a dump, if not, it isn't. There might be room in there to add a dimension which allows players to burnout a cut off supply unit to keep units in supply briefly even when it can't trace...but I think the potential is there to go overboard and add too many little rules which would rarely affect play. The best defense for those cities is not the city itself (that acts as the last stand bastion), but the six adjacent hexes...no they don't get the terrain mod for the city, but they will defend the city until you absolutely _must_ defend right in it. (It allows a ton more units to live in the little goose egg and contribute to the place's defense. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 256 Mon May 08, 1995 B.SCHWEITZE1 [Bruce] at 01:34 EDT I sure have heard a lot of complaints about the air rules in EATG. Does anyone have other air rules? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 257 Mon May 08, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 07:19 EDT Bruce, Dean intends to publish a set of optional air rules with Tunisia, due out for Origins. (Mid July, for those who don't follow the con schedule.) See what you think then. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 258 Mon May 08, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 10:42 EDT Bruce: Please e-mail me what you have heard...sounds like you have heard many more than I have and I want to hear what is being said...please also tell me how many guys you are hearing from and how much experience they have with the system. Thanks! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 260 Mon May 08, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 23:05 EDT Dean, Thanks for the info on the possible German supply rule in Ardennes. I agree concerning the terrain around a city. Thats what really makes or breaks the city defense. Thats why Bastogne is so hard to hold for the Germans. Particularly when the American artillery begins to accumulate. The German defenders around the city are in the open and sure do take a pounding! Bruce, I'd be interested in hearing about the problems with EaTG air rules also. As soon as I wrap up my games of Afrika and Yom Kippur we're thinking of trying out EaTG. (I have a feeling we won't be putting Yom Kippur away too soon though.) I haven't noticed many complaints on this topic concerning the air rules. Actually I don't remember any. I haven't been visiting the EaTG topic lately though either. Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 261 Tue May 09, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 08:18 EDT Dean, The group I game with has no problems with the actual rules per se, but (although I'm the only one who'll admit this :-) ) we have lots of trouble IMPLEMENTING the system effectively. The proper use of air in OCS is a bit of a puzzle to me sometimes....maybe that was your intent? I wonder if that isn't the true reason for "complaints" from other quarters. Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 262 Tue May 09, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:35 EDT Mark: Actually the intent was to make the thing pretty naturalistic...what you think you should is what you should do (followed by being rewarded by it working). I think the rules as presented in v2.0 fell a little short of that mark (with the problem--as I see it--concentrated right on top of two things: lack of an air unit stacking limit and the Put Up/Shut Up rule generated because of it). The optional rules included with the OCS rulebook coming with Tunisia are my attempt to correct this. It is a pity I am finally going to get some input at this point (after the rules leave for the printer...). All I had to go on before was the comments of a few players and my own gut feelings. I think the solutions we worked out over the last year are pretty good...I just fear we might have overlooked something... Waithing for comments... (make that "waiting") Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 263 Tue May 09, 1995 W.GRAVES2 [Wig] at 19:51 EDT Dean, I second Mark's comments about the real problem being "proper" implementation of the air rules. When we started the EATG Campaign things went fine while there was no flight. When the weather finally cleared both Jim and I had that "deer in the headlights" kinda look and then someone finally asked, "what do we do now?". Wig BTW. Did you get my package? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 264 Wed May 10, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:00 EDT Wig: What package? Just kidding :)...I got it and it looks good. I'm going on another (brief) trip. This time to see the counters being diecut for Black Wednesday, Tunisia, and Marengo...be back Friday. I hope the original OCS air poster will give us more to work with (i.e. has a chance to get on line again) by then. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 265 Wed May 10, 1995 J.BEHAN1 [Jeff] at 21:30 EDT Dean and/or Dave: A little philosophical guidance here, please. It's about 8:30 in a recent April Harvest game. Sixth Corps has rolled snake eyes consecutively for initiative and is cut off from Union lines. They now need to do an ECR because they have been attacked for two consecutive turns without orders. Where do they go? What if they are effectively surrounded? Defensive orders are kind of a pain for the Union in this one and the results of this one are a little wierd. Also, if a routed unit must retreat and it's surrounded, does it just disappear? Later, Jeff ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 266 Thu May 11, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 17:37 EDT Jeff, a routed unit with no retreat route is eliminated. As for Prentiss' poor boys, if there is absolutely no retreat route, I suggest remaining in place and rolling for stragglers on the next higher table. Since their liable to have to do this every couple of turns - not to mention the likely possibilities for lots of firepower and flank shots applied to them - I suspect they're not long for the battle. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 267 Thu May 11, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 23:03 EDT Gentlemen: Got YOM KIPPUR in the mail today. First impression: outstanding. You'll get no gripes from me about graphics on this one. I like the colors, intensity and overall look of the game. I also noted the graphics in the rules, lots of pictures of special counters in the game and the photos in the game specific rule book is a nice touch. I liked them in APRIL'S HARVEST too, by the way. Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 268 Fri May 12, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:49 EDT Jeff: Too bad about Prentiss...lots of "We regret to inform you..." letters going out to the parents of the boys...of course the lucky (?) ones will be spending the war as prisoners in the sunny south. Dan: Thanks for the comments...they help me to know what to do (as well as the ones that tell me what _not_ to do...) I got back from the die cutter last night. The counters for Tunisia, Black Wednesday and Marngo are done and SVH did their usual outstanding job. They also had the maps and boxes done for those games. I also was able to get a peek at For Whom the Bell Tolls' counters. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 269 Fri May 12, 1995 B.BONNEVIER [AXEMAN] at 18:21 EDT What is "For Whom the Bell Tolls"? Tell me its a TCS game on the Spanish Civil War ?! ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 270 Fri May 12, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 23:23 EDT For Whom The Bell Tolls is a Europa game on the Spanish Civil War, and published by GRD - not The Gamers. Sorry. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 271 Sat May 13, 1995 E.CAYLOR [Drifter] at 12:35 EDT Last weekend, I was able to play April's Harvest with three other players who were familiar with the system. We managed to get through to 7 am of the second day. In my solitaire game of April's Harvest, the Army of the Ohio rolled a 66 on just the third turn of the game and definately kept the CSA from any hope of winning. In the four-player game, the Union rolled a 66 on the SECOND turn. The two CSA players immediately saw their own personal morale drop, but plugged on. By 9:30 am. the losses were CSA 18 Killed 11 stragglers, the USA was 36 K, 33 S. The The USA 5th and 6th Divisions were shattered, Sherman was wounded and Prentiss was killed. There was a huge hole in the middle of the Union lines, leaving the Hornet's Nest free for the taking. The CSA got there one turn before the first of Hurlburt's and the early arriving Army of Ohio units. There was two hours of hard fighting leaving Hurlburt wounded, his division shattered, and the three Army of Ohio units badly mauled. The CSA 1st Corps was done for the day, but had no units shattered. At 1 pm, the losses were CSA 64 K, 40 Stragglers, USA 85 K and 81 Stragglers. In the afternoon, the Union surprised the CSA with a strong flank attack on the CSA flank by W. Wallace's 2nd Div. and McClernand's 1st Div. Hindman was wounded in this fight, as was McClernand. This fight was made possible by the timely arrival of more Army of Ohio units who were able to defend in front of Pittsburgh landing and inhibit the advance of southern units. The CSA finally beat off the attack, wrecking W.Wallace badly in the fight, but this left the CSA 3rd Corps too weak to be of further offensive value for the day. The CSA reserve Corps was presented with an exceptional opportunity to hit the Union right flank and do serious damage to the previously battered men of W. Wallace and McClernand, but couldn't get orders for over six hours, despite the fact that Johnston and Breckinridge are both 3 rated leaders. Night saw a slight readjustment of the lines and lots of straggler recovery till the heavy rains came. At 6 am on the second day, the CSA held a line from northwest to southeast, anchored on the hornet's nest and the peach orchard. They were about to launch a flank attack on both Union flanks (held by still shattered divisions, and the Union was going to hammer the hornet's nest with fresh Army of Ohio units. We had to stop there. Losses were CSA 95 K and only one unrecovered Straggler, USA 129 K and 28 S. We felt the CSA would get a few kills on the flanks at low cost, before they had to retire, and the Union would break the line at the hornet's nest in two to three turns of combat. The south would hold only on or two victory point hexes by nightfall, and CSA Killed might stand around 140, USA 170. Trying to project victory points for hexes owned, Brigades wrecked, leaders lost, etc. We think each side would have had 27-31 victory points, and that sure looks like a draw to me. If not for the early arrival of the Army of Ohio, I think the CSA could have picked up 5-6 more points in victory point hexes, and the USA would never have got off the late afternoon flank assault on the CSA's left. That might have been just enough to slide the VP's up to a weak CSA victory. However, in the end the CSA did not destroy Grant, or even move him back to the river, so the south would have lost in actuality. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 272 Sat May 13, 1995 K.TURNER11 at 17:44 EDT Has anyone been playing 'In Their Quiet Fields' 2nd edition? Do you who have played need to wear sun glasses or do you put tinted glass/plexiglass on top of the map? Am I the only one who thinks the title is an oxymoron? Might 'In Their LOUD Fields' be a bit more appropriate? Has anyone suggested that the map needs to be reprinted? Just wondering... ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 273 Sat May 13, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 19:23 EDT Don't hold back. What do you REALLY think of the map? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 274 Sat May 13, 1995 P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog] at 23:43 EDT Dean, I like your suggestions for the German mobile supply counters. We are going to give them a try. We are also going to allow the 11th Panzer to arrive on turn 3 or later for 1 VP. The 2 veteran players are playing the Allies. EatG air rules. There are 4 of us playing the campaign game. # of us played most of the scenarios before we started the big one. We just picked the game up on turn 19 after the Soviets went back to back and creamed the Axis air force on the ground. We had done a PUOSU on turn 18 and knocked down all but 1 Hungarian fighter. Going 1st on turn 19 allowed us 2 phases of airbase bombing and the 50% chance is deadly. It did not hurt that my troops killed a bunch more of his infantry and pushed him out of the hills south of Voroshilovgrad. Destroying planes on the ground is too easy. Getting the AB result is ok but making it a 50% no matter what plane is strafing the airfiled is too strong. Perhaps some kind of table based on the bombers strengths. They hated it when my long range 5's and 2's did the damage. Combine this with the airbases losing levels when they are located in black or red cities means the airbases never come back. Scott suggested putting step loss markers under the airbase and these come off by spending the 2T but there is not die roll. Repairing an airbase is much easier then building one, especially in a city where you already have the land. The other galling thing is the first turn after no flight so that whoever goes first gets to roam around because the other play can not put up his CAP. This "bone" has been mentioned by some on the Internet as something they do not like and we have to disagree. So we picked up EatG and we play Ardennes with 4 players. Any chance to see the optional air rules for Tunisia? How about a summary right here? Thanks, Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 275 Sun May 14, 1995 B.SCHWEITZE1 [Bruce] at 02:51 EDT What I do not like about the air rules in EATG is: (A) If there is no flight, the next turn there is flight the first phasing player can put out his bombers with no opposition from enemy fighters. (B) It is to easy to kill planes on the ground. A plane with a small bomb load has a reasonable chance to kill half of the planes on the ground. The combat charts do not reflect bomb tonage with plane loss. (C) It is too difficult to repair airbases at cities. I suggest that airbases be done away with, give each side a number of plane types to use for air superiority or ground support. Let fighters go up at any time. Bruce ------------