Brian Train - 03:50pm Feb 15, 2000 PST (#204 of 206) "He was wont so to speak plain and to the purpose, as an honest man and a soldier." Learning Shining Path, and came up with some questions/requests for clarification. Check WebGrognards, but these aren't addressed there. So, someone pass them on to Brian Train, please? << don't apologize for the length, Roy - glad to see you are paying attention. These are all good questions.>> [Morale Adjustment Summary] If a Sendero unit is eliminated (by rolling a 1 on the Mission Success table) when there is no Government unit in the area, does the Government still get the Morale benefit (and presumably the choice to apply it to either Police Morale or Army Morale)? <> [Morale Adjustment Summary] I assume that if a Sendero unit is eliminated via the Mission Success Table when units of only one government organization (Army OR Police) occupies the patrol circle, that organization gets the Morale benefit; and that when units of both organizations (or of neither) are in the patrol circle, that the government player gets to decide which organization gets the benefit? << It doesn't really matter who or what was "responsible" for the death of the Sendero unit: technically the Government player is free to give the benefit to either organization, you might want to institute some kind of house rule if that's what you need to make peace with your soul.>> [3.0] Do the Sendero At-Start Cadres have to start in an area with at least one Front? <> [6.0] Are Government Build/Train missions deducted from the appropriate Army or Police AP 'budget', or can they be paid from the Government AP tally? <> [6.0] I assume that the Government player may 'consolidate' two 1-step Static units of the same organization into a single '2-step' unit at any time? <> [6.0, 10.2] After the first turn, at what point in the turn does the Government allocate APs to the Army and Police AP budgets? In the 10.2 Economics Phase? <> [7.0, 8.0 and the Mission Cost Table] 7.0 says "moves them from the Garrison box ... to the Patrol box at the rate of 1 AP per unit". The Mission Cost Table says it costs 2 AP per unit to run a Patrol mission. 8.0 says "... can conduct any mission except Build, Augment or Train." So, which of the following is correct? (a) Moving units to the Patrol circle in the Deployment Phase costs 1 AP per unit, while moving them to the Patrol circle in the Operations Phase costs 2 AP per unit (b) Units may only be moved to the Patrol circle during the Deployment Phase, at a cost of 1 AP per unit (c) Units may only be moved to the Patrol circle in the Deployment Phase, at a cost of 2 AP per unit. (d) Some other interpretation that I've missed? <<(d), I guess. I don't have a hard copy of the game in front of me, but the electronic version of the rules I am consulting to help me answer your questions indicate a cost of 1 AP to run a Patrol mission in the Mission Cost Table. You can run Patrol missions in either the Deployment or Operations Phase, it just makes more sense to do them in the Deployment Phase because then they can affect all Sendero missions.>> [Cordon & Search Routine] "... to deploy out of GAR box to OPS box of any other area." Does this mean that a unit cannot run a C&S mission in the area in which it starts the Operations Phase? <> [Cordon & Search Routine] "... -1 if unit has already conducted a mission ..." Does this mean 'if the targeted unit is in the OC box', or does it really mean 'only if the unit actually conducted a mission, not if it was moved to the OC box via an Intelligence mission'? <> [7.0 and 9.2.3] Sendero units return to the UG box, and Government units return to the GAR box, in the Redeployment phase, correct? <> [9.1.6] Every Sendero mission has a -1 drm for each Government unit in the Patrol circle - except Intimidation. Should Intimidation also have a -1 drm, or is it truly imune to the effects of Government Patrolling? <> [9.2.3 and 9.2.6] 9.2.3 says "Patrol is the only mission static Government units may perform." 9.2.6 says "This mission may only be conducted in areas where the Government has static units present." Does this mean that a static unit must be in the area, but the Intelligence mission is not actually conducted by the static unit? <> [9.2.5] In the case of Reacting to a Sendero movement mission, I assume that the only Government units which may React are those in the area moved to; not those in the area departed, or in areas transited? <> [9.2.7] "Civic Affairs Program. Similar to the Sendero Propaganda mission" It is unclear how the Government would perform this mission. For the Sendero Propaganda mission, the Sendero player must have a unit in the OPS box, but the Government player does not use the OPS box. So, can a Government unit which is in the GAR box perform CAP? A Government unit which is in the Patrol circle? <> [10.1 and Player aid chart] If an area contains only units of one player, I assume that they Control it (1 being infinite times greater than 0)? And if neither player has any units in an area, the area is Contested (but the Sendero get no APs for it)? (Note that this means prior to the start of the game, the government of Peru controlled only 5/6th of its own territory?!). I would have liked some "Contested" markers, and there are blanks on the sheet ... << Yes and yes, and the Sendero player does not get the AP for it. And yes, large parts of Peru were and are without a government that really functions in the sense we are used to. I don't see the use of Contested markers myself, but if it helps you to see which areas have already been tested for effective control, that would be a good use of the blanks (the original version of the game (that was under contract to be published in the moribund Gamefix magazine) had only 100 double-sided counters, so counter space was at a premium. Now of course we have 280.)>> [10.1] Depreciation Segment: Unclear how to handle Government unspent APs. Which of the following is correct: (a) Unused Army AP and/or Police AP are returned to the Government AP prior to Depreciation; (b) The services retain any unspent APs, and the Government player checks for Depreciation of Army, Police, and Government AP separately. <<(a). Total unspent Government AP from both Army and Police and roll once for Depreciation.>> [10.1 and 10.2] Are fractions rounded: (a) down; (b) to the nearest whole number (with 0.5 rounding down); (c) to the nearest whole number (with 0.5 rounding up)? <<(a). Always round down.>> [10.2] Does the Government gain APs for the next turn before or after adjusting the Tax Rate (i.e. will Tax Rate changes be immediately applied, or not until the NEXT Economic Phase)? <> {10.2] Does the Government gain APs before or after adjusting the Economy Level for the effects of Riot/Strikes and excessive taxation levels? <> [10.2] I assume that the 1d6 economic penalty for 20%+ tax rate, and the 2d6 economic penalty for 25%+ tax rate, are not cumulative? <> [10.3] Does the Government player check for ronda desertion before or after redeploying his units? <> [10.3] Does a '2' ronda check for desertion: (a) only once, losing thus a maximum of 1 step to desertion; (b) only once, but if it fails both steps desert; (c) separately for each step of the unit. << (c ) Separately. As pointed out in 2.1, a '2' ronda is two separate units. They are only there to reduce counter clutter (another hangover from the previous 100-counter limit).>> [11.1] Morale. "The Army, Police and Politicians have separate Morale numbers". So why is there a "Army/Police Morale" counter in addition to the "Army Morale" and "Police Morale" counters? Ignore it (and that's a fifth "Contested" marker that could have been ...)? <> [11.2] I assume that at the start of the game the Crisis marker is in the '0' box, and that if a Coup does occur, the Crisis marker is reset to 0? (Otherwise, if the Government survives six crises, it is immune to further crises). <> [13.3] What is/are "EP"? Is the rule saying that Economic Aid is added to the Economy Level, while Military Aid is added to Roy K. Bartoo - 05:09pm Feb 15, 2000 PST (#205 of 206) Brian, thanks for the quick response to the questions (though it looks like part of the response was amputated). A couple more questions, if I may... You commented in reply to my question about 6.0 "The Government has no separate AP tally. Pay the AP for Build/Train missions from either or both budgets." Do you REALLY mean that the Government has no separate AP tally? So that as soon as APs are gained in the Economic Phase, they must be divided between the Army and Police AP tallies, with excess being lost (or, more likely, added back to the Economy Level)? So the Government AP marker is as useless as the "Army/Police Morale" marker? [That's SIX "Contested" markers ... :) ] [13.4] I assume that the player controlling the MRTA may convert Cadre/Front or place a Cadre without expending APs? [13.4] If the Sendero player undertakes an Intimidation mission against an MRTA unit (thus automatically eliminating it), does it still roll on the Mission Success Table for possible elimination of his own Cadre? [13.5] Under a Human Rights Policy, is the Foreign Aid debt which is canceled ALL outstanding Foreign Aid debt (Military and Economic), or only Economic? The game design is really quite, quite interesting - a lot more there than appears at first. Not so sure about the map - it gets awfully busy, and I keep losing track of units (especially in the Patrol circle when determining Control - I've been moving the Government units back to GAR, and the Sendero back to UG, at the end of the Operations Phase). And the rules are waaaay too terse. I kept finding little tidbits that applied to some other section buried away in an unrelated section or in the charts. Finally rewrote the rules for myself, so that for example all the information about Cordon & Search missions is in the rules under that heading - using the sheet of charts just for quick reference. My Sendero keep getting hammered, by a combination of the Government raising the Tax Rate to 19%, and bad rolls trying to get Cadre out of areas Patrolled by the Government. But I shall persevere. Quite an interesting little item! Roy Roy K. Bartoo - 05:12pm Feb 15, 2000 PST (#206 of 206) Oh, and yes, I've played with people who took the rules quite literally, so that if a rules section said "to any other area", they'd insist that meant "not to the current area", because otherwise the rules would say "to any area". Law school taught me to read rules (and contracts) this way myself, so sometimes I find ambiguities that weren't intended ... Roy Brian Train - 09:20am Feb 16, 2000 PST (#208 of 211) "He was wont so to speak plain and to the purpose, as an honest man and a soldier." Hi Roy, Yes, it looks as if some of the answer did get cut off - guess there is a maximum length of one screen for messages on this board! Here is the remaining bit: [13.3] What is/are “EP”? Is the rule saying that Economic Aid is added to the Economy Level, while Military Aid is added to the Government AP tally? And that to ‘pay off’ both Military and Economic Aid, he must reduce the Economy Level by the same amount? << EP=Economy Points. Yes, Economic Aid=EP=Economy Level addition; Military Aid = AP = AP of either Police or Army. To pay off your debts, you pay Economic Aid deficits in EP (taken from your Economy Level) and Military Aid deficits in AP (taken from either Police or Army Levels). I don't expect anyone to actually do this: this might help you to understand why 3rd world countries routinely default on their loans.>> [Crisis reaction] “... reduce Army/Police morale by 2 points ...” Which is correct: (a) BOTH Army and Police Morale are reduced by 2 points; (b) Army Morale is reduced by 2 points, OR Police Morale is reduced by 2 points, OR both are reduced by 1 point, Government player’s choice among the options; (c) Army Morale is reduced by 2 points, OR Police Morale is reduced by 2 points, OR both are reduced by 1 point, Sendero player’s choice among the options. << (C) is correct. A couple more questions, if I may... <> You commented in reply to my question about 6.0 "The Government has no separate AP tally. Pay the AP for Build/Train missions from either or both budgets." Do you REALLY mean that the Government has no separate AP tally? So that as soon as APs are gained in the Economic Phase, they must be divided between the Army and Police AP tallies, with excess being lost (or, more likely, added back to the Economy Level)? So the Government AP marker is as useless as the "Army/Police Morale" marker? [That's SIX "Contested" markers ... :) ] << Yes, yes but there is no excess, and yes. This is another hangover from the days when there was a "basic" and "advanced" version of the game, and only the advanced version made a distinction between Army and Police morale. The Gamefix-era developer who was assigned to work with me on this one suggested it, we argued and I yielded, the game never appeared in Gamefix, the rules were rewritten but those unnecessary counters stayed in. So yeah, that's six Contested markers if you want.>> [13.4] I assume that the player controlling the MRTA may convert Cadre/Front or place a Cadre without expending APs? <> [13.4] If the Sendero player undertakes an Intimidation mission against an MRTA unit (thus automatically eliminating it), does it still roll on the Mission Success Table for possible elimination of his own Cadre? <> [13.5] Under a Human Rights Policy, is the Foreign Aid debt which is canceled ALL outstanding Foreign Aid debt (Military and Economic), or only Economic? <> The game design is really quite, quite interesting - a lot more there than appears at first. << Thank you!>> Not so sure about the map - it gets awfully busy, and I keep losing track of units (especially in the Patrol circle when determining Control - I've been moving the Government units back to GAR, and the Sendero back to UG, at the end of the Operations Phase). And the rules are waaaay too terse. << These are things I guess we would address if we ever do a second edition of the game. Sales are not brisk - maybe 100 copies in two years, due I think to the obscurity of the subject. It's not justified to redo the map or counters, Kerry is far too busy with other new projects anyway. Revising the rules would be easier, now if I only had time to do that Real Soon Now...>> I kept finding little tidbits that applied to some other section buried away in an unrelated section or in the charts. Finally rewrote the rules for myself, so that for example all the information about Cordon & Search missions is in the rules under that heading - using the sheet of charts just for quick reference. <> My Sendero keep getting hammered, by a combination of the Government raising the Tax Rate to 19%, and bad rolls trying to get Cadre out of areas Patrolled by the Government. But I shall persevere. Quite an interesting little item! << Glad you like it.>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy K. Bartoo - 04:44pm Feb 16, 2000 PST (#209 of 211) Brian, Still a LITTLE confused on the Government AP issue. Suppose both the Army and Police AP tallies are at zero, Morales are at 6 and 7 respectively. Tax Rate is 19%, Economy is at 90%. So the Government is getting 17 AP this turn (assuming no cocaine-flavored income, no riot/strikes, foreign aid, etc). The morale levels mean that the Government can only absorb 13 AP (6 for the Army, 7 for the Police), leaving 4 AP 'excess'. Does the Government simply forfeit these 4 AP, or can it instantly plow them back into what it laughingly calls the economy (raising it to 94%)? I assume that it cannot store them in some way (which is what I had been using the Government AP marker for - sort of 'banking' the excess against future needs). Oh, that's another question - the Economy Level is actually a percent (at least I assume so, or according to the Economic Phase calculation the Government is swimming in APs ...) so if the government player is doing Really Well, can the Economy be raised to over 99% (in which case what, flip the marker over and start it at the top of the chart again I suppose)? Yeah, I do like the game (once I got the rules sorted out - I'd be glad to email you a copy ... ). Remarkable how supple the system is, with only a handful of missions on the palette for each side. Too bad that it hasn't been more popular - maybe you need to find a way to transport the system to WWII Eastern Front (gag)? :) Although WWII Yugoslavia might be interesting, or even WWII Occupied France. Roy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Train - 09:25am Feb 17, 2000 PST (#211 of 211) "He was wont so to speak plain and to the purpose, as an honest man and a soldier." Brian, Still a LITTLE confused on the Government AP issue. Suppose both the Army and Police AP tallies are at zero, Morales are at 6 and 7 respectively. Tax Rate is 19%, Economy is at 90%. So the Government is getting 17 AP this turn (assuming no cocaine-flavored income, no riot/strikes, foreign aid, etc). The morale levels mean that the Government can only absorb 13 AP (6 for the Army, 7 for the Police), leaving 4 AP 'excess'. Does the Government simply forfeit these 4 AP, or can it instantly plow them back into what it laughingly calls the economy (raising it to 94%)? I assume that it cannot store them in some way (which is what I had been using the Government AP marker for - sort of 'banking' the excess against future needs). << The excess AP would be lost. The government taxation level represents what it is taking out of the country's economy and turning into non-productive items like army boots, gas for the helicopters, and new nightsticks for the cops. The Morale level for Army or Police represents their level of effectiveness of using what they're given, not their capacity for absorbing money and nifty equipment (which, like any other organ of national security in any country, is infinite). Throw that Government AP marker away NOW!>> Oh, that's another question - the Economy Level is actually a percent (at least I assume so, or according to the Economic Phase calculation the Government is swimming in APs ...) so if the government player is doing Really Well, can the Economy be raised to over 99% (in which case what, flip the marker over and start it at the top of the chart again I suppose)? << The Economy Level is NOT a percentage figure, it's measured in Economy Points. The Taxation Rate is a percentage figure. So to take your example above, with an economy level of 90 and a taxation rate of 19%, the AP derived is 90 x 0.19, not 19 x 0.90. I know in either case it's 17.1 mathematically, but it's not the same thing in game terms. And yes, if your economy did Really Well, you could flip the marker over to denote +100 EP and start again at the top of the track. This was another marker for which there wasn't room in the 100 counter version.>> Yeah, I do like the game (once I got the rules sorted out - I'd be glad to email you a copy ... ). Remarkable how supple the system is, with only a handful of missions on the palette for each side. Too bad that it hasn't been more popular - maybe you need to find a way to transport the system to WWII Eastern Front (gag)? :) Although WWII Yugoslavia might be interesting, or even WWII Occupied France. << Shining Path was one of the first three Microgame Co-op games to come out. If you will look at my later designs, you will see that I have improved in my rules writing! (At least, I think I have.) As it happens, I have done another game using the SP system, this time covering the Algerian War 1954-62. Working title is just Algeria, and it uses a development of the Shining Path game system, with some extra chops and changes to mirror the new situation. The FLN (rebel) player has a variety of cadres, fronts and guerrilla infantry companies to use in Algeria to wear down the French political will to hang on to this troublesome possession, while the French player has to contend with a largely useless conscript regular army, unreliable local forces, and a limited number of effective intervention forces. Lots of chromy bits like coups d'etat, the OAS, helicopters, pacification, and Jean-Paul Sartre. Playtesting (thanks guys!) was done in late 1999 and did not show up any serious flaws (but maybe I should have had your eagle eyes go over it!) so I am going to stick a fork in it, it's done. Eventually will be released through the Co-op but it may be some time - we're cutting back production a bit in 2000 after the ambitious SEVEN games (!) Kerry released last year. I think you will like Algeria. I had thought about using it in other situations too, WW2 Yugoslavia might work but it's an order of magnitude greater in terms of troops involved etc. For the record, I think I must be one of the few people who actually played TITO and enjoyed it! Thanks again for your comments.