From: Dave Kohr Subject: comments on WEG Air Cav My original question, posed on CONSIM-L, the Contemporary folder on Consimworld, and USENET (rec.games.board and alt.games.wargames) : Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 15:49:05 -0800 (PST) From: Dave Kohr Subject: West End hypothetical games In a fit of wargame collecting madness 3 years back, I snagged 3 West End hypothetical NATO/Warsaw Pact games: Air Cav, Air & Armor, and Fireteam, when they were being dumped by WEG for the firesale price of $5 each. Naturally they've been sitting in the closet since, still in shrinkwrap.... I have since seen Air & Armor played, and heard multiple positive comments about it, so this one sounds like a keeper. I've heard mixed comments about Air Cav (e.g. interesting system, but it has ugly, generic counters and maps that require you to look up stats for everything based on the scenario). And I haven't heard anything about Fireteam except that it's kind of complicated. So does anybody have any more opinions about these games? Thanks, Dave Kohr Be sure to remove the SPAMFOILER! ---------------------------------------- from CONSIM-L : >From mike.duttera@juno.com Sat Dec 2 19:00:37 2000 Only played Air Cav and that only once. Reminded me of Panzer Blitz. Seemed all right but I couldn't stand the line of sight checking necessary inviolving elevation changes. You could not look at the map and readily tell if you could see something- too many topographical levels/lines made seeing if you could see a pain. And seeing was everything. If one is seen but can't see themselves, one is dead! I could see it was more realistic than, say, SL/ASL tabletop-like elevation levels, but it detracted from playability IMO. Other than that it wasn't too bad. Can't really remember much more than that as it was 8 years or so ago when I played. ---- Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:14:40 +0930 From: "topkat" Must have got on the same deal, got Air and Armour, Air Cav and Desert Steel cheap when there was a clearance sale. Had played Air Cav in the early 90's and it was okay, I've never liked any of the modern hypotheticals. A guy Charles T Kamps did a whole bunch for S&T years ago, could never get into them, but Air Cav was at least fun to play. The generic nature was a bit odd but I had a FTF opponent who really liked it, and as he taught me Squad Leader it seemed only fair to play something else he liked. Still have Air and Armour, buts its unopened so can't comment on it. Chris ---------------------------------------- from Consimworld: Dav Vandenbroucke - 04:01pm Dec 2, 2000 PST The only one I've played is Air Cav. Your summary is basically on target. I liked the system so much that I played every scenario, something unusual for me. The maps are nice. The counters are drab, to say the least. It is a table-intensive game, but comparing the stats and how they interact can be fascinating. A.J. - 09:58pm Dec 2, 2000 PST I, on the other hand, have played "Air Cav" and "Fire Team". All those times playing FT and I never knew it was an SL adaptation. Air Cav: Liked the interaction of weapon types found on the AFVs and choppers. The generic counters needed getting used to but helped limit the counter mix. Did it give me an insight to chopper tactics in a modern battle environment? Some, but not enough. I had to adapt the rules to suit my ideas of (for example) ammo use by the helicopters, firing from behind cover, and use of smoke on the battlefield. I've never played "Tac-Air" which may be it's closest comparison. [....] Both "Air Cav" and FT benefit from FtF playing. I'm more a hardware guy, so I would keep Air Cav. ----- From: The Maverick Subject: Re: Any opinions on "Air Cav", "Air & Armor" or "Desert Steel"? Date: 08 Nov 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <3826EBD0.5837@volcano.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <804kor$o4s@news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: typ11.nn.bcandid.com 942074482 208.234.127.4 (Mon, 08 Nov 1999 10:21:22 EST) Organization: Space and Fantasy Gamer's Guide http://www.brainiac.com/micro/sfgg/ MIME-Version: 1.0 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 10:21:22 EST Newsgroups: rec.games.board Christian Schlobach wrote: > > I saw the three WEG games "Air Cav" Air Cav is a re-release of OSG's Air Cobra. For what it's worth, it is about the only game focusing on the interaction between helicopters and ground forces at this scale. If the topic interests you, snag it. ----- From: rlindsay@shark.gsfc.nasa.gov (robert lindsay) Subject: Re: Any opinions on "Air Cav", "Air & Armor" or "Desert Steel"? Date: 09 Nov 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: References: <804kor$o4s@news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <3826EBD0.5837@volcano.net> Organization: IYKWIMAITYD Newsgroups: rec.games.board In article <3826EBD0.5837@volcano.net>, The Maverick wrote: >Christian Schlobach wrote: >> >> I saw the three WEG games "Air Cav" > >Air Cav is a re-release of OSG's Air Cobra. For what it's worth, it is >about the only game focusing on the interaction between helicopters and >ground forces at this scale. If the topic interests you, snag it. Incorrect, Mav. Air Cav and Air Cobra were designed by the same guy, but Air Cav has a much cleaned up and simplified version of rules, and has different scenarios and units than Air Cobra. It's not a reprint of Air Cobra (thankfully, for those who tried to play Air Cobra). ----- From: Dav_and_Frances_Vandenbroucke@compuserve.com (Dav Vandenbroucke) Subject: Re: Any opinions on "Air Cav", "Air & Armor" or "Desert Steel"? Date: 09 Nov 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <38275c33.17505624@news.compuserve.com> References: <804kor$o4s@news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com 942105447 18153 216.192.90.81 (8 Nov 1999 23:57:27 GMT) Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Nov 1999 23:57:27 GMT Newsgroups: rec.games.board Air Cav is one of my favorite tactical games. It has a nice interactive sequence of play. All of the weapons are identified by name, and the combat resolution provides a lot of "color." The components are a bit drab, particularly the counters. ----- From: Philippe FERRY Subject: Re: Any opinions on "Air Cav", "Air & Armor" or "Desert Steel"? Date: 10 Nov 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: Newsgroups: rec.games.board Quick view of Air cav : * Air cav is provided with two (quite awfull) maps. an europeean on with forest and moutain, an aonther one desert-like with sand and so on. *The generic counters are used with sheets wich decribe the most common modern (up to 90') guns, vehicle and helicopters. *Each game turn is splitted in operation phase where the 'gamer in play' active some of his formation (tanks, helicopters..). *An active counter is allowed 12 point of operation. Each operation (move, fire, evasive maneouvre, smoke ...) cost points depending of the unit using it. *Non active counter may react to operation conducts by active ones, as long as they still have some of their 12 points not used yet. *Night,rainy day, snow rules are provided *Rules read about Laser designator, radar and such modern tools. *Campaign rules are also provided === Most of the scenario show 2 forces, one in a defensive position and another one trying to reach a pre-defined position. Figth are quite deadly. a viewed foe is mostly a dead one. Solitaire play is quite easy. Compare to a tactical game such as Squad leader, rules are really more easy to learn, well explained with samples. There are two level of rules ( normal and advanced). The rule with its '12' point of operation cost is uncommon and give a good interaction betweens players. Opinon ? : If the material (counter, maps,) is not much nice, the rules by themself provide a sufficient reason to by the game. ----- from USENET: From: lord_mollari@my-deja.com Subject: Re: Any opinions on "Air Cav", "Air & Armor" or "Desert Steel"? Date: 10 Nov 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <80bbev$f11$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.board [....] Air Cav is a generic game. The same pieces (tanks/APC/Helicopters) are used to represent a variety of varients of each type. eg Counter 'Tank 1' can represent a T-72, T-60 or T-55. You have look up charts to calculate stats. The plus is that you get a lot of variety, at the expense of "Now which tank is the T-55?". The map has the same feature, for seasonal/geography effects. Not a bad game, nice mechanics, advanced rules adds complexity and fiddlyness.