Subject: Re: Comments on Origins From: ROBERT M TITRAN On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:36:10 -0700 (PDT) kohr@aeon.engr.sgi.com (Dave Kohr) writes: >I'm only commenting on all the complaints I hear about not being able >to find the boardgaming, not having the events that people want, tripping >over pubescent cardgamers on the way to the boardgames, etc. I heard some griping there, much of it concerning the fact that we pre-reg'd people had to (gasp) wait in line while the on-site reg folks walked right up to the on-site reg desk. My wait was less than 1/2 and hour. No one griping mentioned that once you were checked in as pre-reg'd, you were set for the next 4 days while the on-site folks would be in line every day... The only other unfortunate aspect was that many of the boardgames were "bring a copy of the game" events, and this was not widely advertised. At times plenty of folks were turned away, I guess some of them were serious competitive types and took it very poorly. Personally, I had no problem finding the boardgames, the 8' BOARDGAME HQ banner took care of that, and it seemed to me the CCG crowd pretty much minded their own business. Avaloncon does sound like a good time, but I'm more of a social than competitive gamer - would I be out of my league? Also, I'd sorely miss the vendors that show up at Origins. >What's PacFront? PacFront is Columbia's upcoming block game on WWII Pacific Theater. Tom Daglish (sp?) was running it and seeking input - it's at a very early stage of gameness. It's an agglomeration of Victory and Eastfront at four hundred miles/hex and 3 month/turn (scale, that is), the game uses HQs as in Eastfront (which I can explain a little more if you'd like) but resolves movement, combat, and production as in Victory, sort of. Allies have 3 HQs (an east and a west that can't send units into the other's area, which I'm told mirrors some of the historical problems with cooperation that occurred, plus a third "strategic" HQ). Japan has 3 HQs also, two regular HQs that don't suffer the restrictions that the Allies do, plus a strategic HQ. In the 3 or so hours I played (as the Allies, bummer), Japan had managed to clear out much of the Philippines but were running out of steam. I had begun to build up a useful force in Hawaii (the game starts immediately after Pearl Harbor...) and make some tentative, probing attacks. While the game still has some weirdness in it, it was enjoyable and did a good job at capturing some of the "flavor" of the PTO (as much as I can tell at least, I'm no historian). I think it'll be a winner. The block system seems ideally suited to this type of "foggy" warfare and the mechanics don't get much simpler. Bob Titran rmt66@juno.com Last Played - History of the World, Great War at Sea, Blue vs. Gray, DBA, PacFront, El Grande, Napoleon's Battles, Volley and Bayonet (all at Origins) ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: "Paul O'Connor" Subject: PacFront, was Re: Comments on Origins ROBERT M TITRAN wrote: > >What's PacFront? > > PacFront is Columbia's upcoming block game on WWII Pacific Theater. Tom > Daglish (sp?) was running it and seeking input - it's at a very early > stage of gameness. It's an agglomeration of Victory and Eastfront As a fan of both Victory and EastFront, I hope you won't mind if I press you for more details, Bob. > at > four hundred miles/hex and 3 month/turn (scale, that is), the game uses > HQs as in Eastfront (which I can explain a little more if you'd like) but > resolves movement, combat, and production as in Victory, sort of. > Allies have 3 HQs (an east and a west that can't send units into the > other's area, which I'm told mirrors some of the historical problems with > cooperation that occurred, plus a third "strategic" HQ). Japan has 3 HQs > also, two regular HQs that don't suffer the restrictions that the Allies > do, plus a strategic HQ. The EastFront HQ system uses army group HQs to activate units within a specific radius, while supreme HQs can activate units anywhere on the map. Is this the case in PacFront? Do HQs burn steps to activate units? Are there different costs to build different types of units in PacFront, or does it use Victory's everything-costs-the-same system? Is there a production track that makes the player construct ships in a realistic length of time, or can you build anything you like any time you like? > In the 3 or so hours I played (as the Allies, > bummer), Japan had managed to clear out much of the Philippines but were > running out of steam. I had begun to build up a useful force in Hawaii > (the game starts immediately after Pearl Harbor...) and make some > tentative, probing attacks. Is a three-hour length of time for the opening moves of the Pacific war typical? How much of this time was spent learning rules, and how much playing? How long do you think it will take experienced players to complete a campaign? How are land units conducted over sea? Are there transport units or do land units strat move over water ala Victory? > While the game still has some weirdness in it, it was enjoyable and did a > good job at capturing some of the "flavor" of the PTO (as much as I can > tell at least, I'm no historian). I think it'll be a winner. The block > system seems ideally suited to this type of "foggy" warfare and the > mechanics don't get much simpler. Are there tactical surprise mechanics (in addition to block fog of war) to help simulate carrier vs. carrier combat? Victory restricts carriers to basing as many steps of aircraft as the carrier itself has steps (so a 4-step CV can have 4 steps of aircraft). Is this the case in PacFront, or have the stacking rules been loosened up to allow CVs to carry a fuller compliment of aircraft? (in Victory, a CV can't carry more than one type of aircraft unless they are partial units -- no way to base fighters, torpedo bombers, and dive bombers on the same flat top unless you're willing to go with fragile 1-step air units). > Bob Titran > rmt66@juno.com > Last Played - History of the World, Great War at Sea, Blue vs. Gray, DBA, > PacFront, El Grande, Napoleon's Battles, Volley and Bayonet (all at > Origins) Sounds like you had a good show ... Subject: Re: Comments on Origins From: ROBERT M TITRAN On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:22:43 -0700 "Paul O'Connor" writes: >As a fan of both Victory and EastFront, I hope you won't mind if I >press you for more details, Bob. Don't mind at all, Paul, good to hear from you. >The EastFront HQ system uses army group HQs to activate units within a >specific radius, while supreme HQs can activate units anywhere on the >map. Is this the case in PacFront? Yes it is, though it leads to some of that "weirdness" I alluded to. You've got a lot of space to cover and having your activation radius decrease by 1 hex every move gives you a straight jacketed feeling in a hurry. In some cases it doesn't make sense to move as many units as you can within your radius (as is often the case in Eastfront when you try to maximize the effectiveness of your activation) because many units will inevitably get "left behind" as you position your main forces. Tom was tinkering with the idea of essentially doubling the activation radius, i.e. a 3 step HQ could activate all units within 6 hexes. >Do HQs burn steps to activate units? Sure do. >Are there different costs to build different types of units in PacFront, or >does it use Victory's everything-costs-the-same system? Different costs. Though I don't recall specifics, infantry was pretty cheap and CVs were appropriately expensive. HQ steps are expensive as well. >Is there a production track that makes the player construct ships in a >realistic length of time, or can you build anything you like any time >you like? Anything you like. Building away from a Major Port (and there aren't many) doubles the cost. The Allies only got something like 16 production points, while Japan got 10-12 or so depending on what they've conquered, so there weren't that many points to spend and tough choices were the order of the day. >Is a three-hour length of time for the opening moves of the Pacific >war typical? How much of this time was spent learning rules, and how much >playing? How long do you think it will take experienced players to >complete a campaign? Not quite an hour setting up and going over rules. Interruptions to stop and figure out things we didn't quite understand slowed us down as well. My guess that experienced players could knock off a game in 6 hrs. or so, a 1 sitting type of game. >How are land units conducted over sea? Are there transport units or do >land units strat move over water ala Victory? Just move 'em. Infantry are assumed to have transport ships not represented by blocks or markers. Adds to the fog! >Are there tactical surprise mechanics (in addition to block fog of >war) to help simulate carrier vs. carrier combat? No, there weren't. >Victory restricts carriers to basing as many steps of aircraft as the carrier >itself has steps (so a 4-step CV can have 4 steps of aircraft). Is this the >case in PacFront, or have the stacking rules been loosened up to allow CVs to >carry a fuller compliment of aircraft? (in Victory, a CV can't carry more >than one type of aircraft unless they are partial units -- no way to base >fighters, torpedo bombers, and dive bombers on the same flat top >unless you're willing to go with fragile 1-step air units). I believe the CV rules were as per Victory, but don't quote me on this point. My opponent and I never really asked the question so we just played it that way. Neat idea, though. >Sounds like you had a good show ... Oh yeah, had a ball. Went with a friend of mine whose preivous con experience had been limited to a couple local college gatherings. He couldn't fathom that a thousand or more people would show up for something like this...he's still a little stunned. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: "Paul O'Connor" Subject: Re: Comments on Origins ROBERT M TITRAN wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:22:43 -0700 "Paul O'Connor" > writes: > > >As a fan of both Victory and EastFront, I hope you won't mind if I > >press you for more details, Bob. > > Don't mind at all, Paul, good to hear from you. Thanks for the notes, Bob. I am a Columbia autoship customer and always eager to hear about upcoming projects. Sadly, Columbia doesn't update their website as much as I'd like, so I'm in the dark about what to expect. GMT really has set the standard for keeping their customers informed via the web. Wish Columbia would do the same. > You've got a lot of space to cover and having your activation radius > decrease by 1 hex every move gives you a straight jacketed feeling in a > hurry. In some cases it doesn't make sense to move as many units as you > can within your radius (as is often the case in Eastfront when you try to > maximize the effectiveness of your activation) because many units will > inevitably get "left behind" as you position your main forces. Tom was > tinkering with the idea of essentially doubling the activation radius, > i.e. a 3 step HQ could activate all units within 6 hexes. Sounds like classic EastFront, where offensives run out of steam in direct relation to the number of times you activate an HQ (a mechanic I admire). Given the island nature of the terrain, with everything being spread out, I'm not surprised to hear they're considering doubling the activation radius. Depending on the scale and subject of the map, it might make sense to just state that any units with a contiguous land link to their HQ are in communications (although this would be stretching it for the Australian and Burma theatres ... are they in the game?) > Different costs. Though I don't recall specifics, infantry was pretty > cheap and CVs were appropriately expensive. HQ steps are expensive as > well. Probably an evolution of the EastFront build system, then. I'll be anxious to see the production values even if only to back-fit the air and naval stuff to Victory. > My guess that experienced players could knock off a game in 6 hrs. or so, > a 1 sitting type of game. Longer than I'd like, but still not so long as EastFront. > >How are land units conducted over sea? Are there transport units or do > >land units strat move over water ala Victory? > > Just move 'em. Infantry are assumed to have transport ships not > represented by blocks or markers. Adds to the fog! Yes, I thought this would be funky in Victory until I tried it; works remarkably well. > Oh yeah, had a ball. Went with a friend of mine whose preivous con > experience had been limited to a couple local college gatherings. He > couldn't fathom that a thousand or more people would show up for > something like this...he's still a little stunned. There are more of Us out here than They think. I was stunned when seventy people showed up for my last gaming weekend -- and we didn't even advertise! thanks for the notes, Bob