andy libera - 07:47pm Jun 9, 1997 PST (#368 of 374) San Antonio, Texas I'm curious on what people's opinion on the old SPI Blue and Gray games. I've read opionions that blast their "realism," but I think that is too broad a brush. I have been a fan of these, in general, and they have the blissful advantages of being quick to play and ideal for ADC play. Anyway, here are my brief (hopefully ;]) opinions on the games: Blue & Gray I Chickamaugua - by far the best of the eight. A tight, tough game with real chances for both sides. Both sides also have to be ready to play both offense and defense. And the game does have a very historical feel with the Rebs hammering back the Yanks and trying to stretch out the line to get the map exit points. A classic. Shiloh - some will complain about the "idiot Yank" movement restrictions at the beginning, but I don't find these onerous. Here is a game that does develop very historically, with the Rebs needing to press home to the Landing on day 1 or face the renewed Yanks on day 2. A very fun game. Antietam - the game is clean and plays ok, but any game on Antietam faces the uneviable task of simulating McClellan. Game does generate a historical feel as the Yanks are compelled into piecemeal attacks (especially if the Rebel player is clever enough to, in the immortal words of Sir Robin, "run away"). Cemetary Hill (G'Burg) - weakest of the 8 games. At entirely the wrong scale. And the designer was so taken with impressing everyone that Cemetery Ridge was not a ridge that there is no reason to defend along that line. Picketts charge would work here. The game can be close but rarely bears any resemblance to history. This takes a lot away from the game. continued next post andy libera - 08:07pm Jun 9, 1997 PST (#369 of 374) San Antonio, Texas Blue & Gray II Hooker & Lee - more idiot rules for Hooker, but not a bad simulation (has anyone ever played the optional command control rules, where you let the Union player move as much as he wants but hit him over the head with a 2x4 before starting the game?) You can get historical results, but the game is more of an intellectual challange for the Yank than a game. Tip always advance after combat as the Yank as you may not get a chance to move that unit. Chattanooga - a well balanced game that only suffers in that it is very easy for the two sides to stare at each other across the fortified lines for most of the game with only a brief flurry of activity at the end--kind of like veladrome bike racing. If you fall into one of those games, it isn't very exciting, but at least it's over quickly as no one moves much... Fredricksburg - the most unusual choice for a game actually turns out to be a taut affair, but relies totally on the what-if of "what if the Yankees had followed up on Meade's breakthrough. A successful Union game will hit the gap and slowly roll up the entrechment line. This makes for a tough defense for the rebels as they pull more and more units from Mayre's Heights to stop gaps. This is a case where you really wouldn't want to have the game give slavishly historical results--how many men can you watch die on the heights. But it isn't a bad example of the famous old A-H marketing line of you being the general, can you do better. Wilderness - a game that is close and fun to play but can be very bloody. We've played before where the Rebels "won" even though they were completely (or nearly) wiped off of the map, but they had killed enough yankees to pick up the win. Some restrictions on union movement, but not excessive and pretty realistic in representing union fear of the area. May not qualify as very realistic as easier to get "decisive" results than in history. By the way, I strongly dislike the "attacker's effectiveness" option as all it seems to do is stagnate games even more as the number of units that can attack steadily dwindles... Anyway, thanks for suffering through two long posts. I really am curious if anyone is still playing these oldies but goodies and what the general feel for them is. Andy Mike Wethington - 07:11am Jun 10, 1997 PST (#370 of 374) Looking for grognards in Austin, TX area! Just an FYI: My local hobby shop (King's Hobby in Austin, TX) is playtesting the new Columbia block game of the Texas Revolution on June 14 and 21. Anyone in the Austin Area interested in playtesting this game should contact King's Hobby for details. Their number is 512-836-7388. Thomas Prowell - 12:09pm Jun 10, 1997 PST (#371 of 374) Last game: RAF (West End) Andy, I've always had a soft spot in my heart for the original Blue & Gray quad (I don't have B&G II or the DG reprint with 1st Bull Run). They're quick and fun, a good alternative to the Gamers CWB line or GCACW. Sometimes you want a Big Mac, sometimes you want a steak. I agree with your assessment of the first four games. Cemetery Hill is a dud, but the other three are all good games. Does anyone have any comments on the DG reprint? There are also some B&G variants -- the Champion Hill game in S&T ('s'okay) and Mayfair's Sheridan's Ride (just bought it, haven't played it yet). Mayfair's enhancements to the system, including step-loss counters, seem like a particularly good way to teach the old dog new tricks. Ray LaBarbera - 06:40pm Jun 10, 1997 PST (#372 of 374) Last Game Played: Squad Leader Andy, I spent a lot of time playing the original B&G quad instead of studying for my finals in college. I loved it then, and I picked up the new DG version. I mean it has my favorite counter: The Chickamauga Wagon. Chris Fawcett - 07:10pm Jun 10, 1997 PST (#373 of 374) Yankee Air Pirates I played the original B&G I/II games, as well as Road to Richmond, and I always had fun with them. When accepted for what they are, that is quick, semi-accurate renditions of Civil War battles, then they have yet to be matched, except perhaps for Across 5 Aprils, which is essentially the same system with a few optionals thrown in for added flavor. The DG reprints are more aesthetically appealing, with well-colored maps and soldier icons on the unit counters, but there were the unfortunately all-too-present stupid errors by the production and editing "staff." The biggest boner pulled (can I say that here, John?) was changing the "DE" result for a DR of 1 at 3-1 odds to "AE." Talk about negligent. The whole system has been expanded and updated, and now includes many more games on many battles: Blue & Gray (DG): First Bull Run/Manassas Second Bull Run/Manassas Cemetary Ridge Chickamauga Shiloh Antietam Campaign (DG): Antietam/Sharpsburg South Mountain Harpers Ferry Seven Days Battles (DG): Gaines' Mill Seven Pines Malvern Hill Frayser's Farm Savage Station (from S&T 166) Olustee (DG) (also from S&T 166) The Atlanta Campaign (DG): Ezra Church Battle of Atlanta Peachtree Creek Jonesboro I think this provides the casual gamer with a great variety of games and battles, but at the expense of more accurate depiction of detailed Civil War combat. It depends on what you're looking for. andy libera - 09:09pm Jun 10, 1997 PST (#374 of 374) San Antonio, Texas Chris Fawcett wrote: "When accepted for what they are, that is quick, semi-accurate renditions of Civil War battles, then they have yet to be matched ... I think this provides the casual gamer with a great variety of games and battles, but at the expense of more accurate depiction of detailed Civil War combat. It depends on what you're looking for. " Chris, Bravo, these two snippets are what I was trying to get across (I love it when someone agrees with me, at least in part). My narrow point (expounded on exponentially) was that these are good games that knew exactly what they were trying to do and did a good job of doing it. I dare say none of the designers thought they were designing the definitive game on their battle, but they sure did a good job of giving you the same overall challenges as the generals faced [how about it Richard, was Hooker & Lee THE game on Chancellorsville? ;). Actually, as I said before, I thought H&L was an interesting game with its own set of challenges]. The B&G games are examples of what types of games might bring in more newbies. They play the simple game and have fun--in part because the games really are fun and the grognard is enjoying himself--and they want to try something that "has a little more about the subject..." We all know that should be greeted with "abandon hope all ye who enter, thou art about to become a grognard..."