George Sauer III - Jun 28, 2004 5:13 am (#1227 Total: 1300) Columbus Area Boardgaming Society CABS wants to thank the numerous companies and individuals that helped make this years WAR ROOM a success. We know that we listed everyone we would miss someone and get that person/company mad. SO THANK YOU EVEYONE !!! We want to thank GAMA for giving us the oppotunitiy to show them that given the correct resources wargaming can be a big part of the con. We sold out of the two hundred ribbons they printed by Thursday and the GAMA people were stunned !!! We suspect that by the end of t he show we were over 300 !!! Next year we will see if we can get them to print 500 and see if we can sell them out !!! Again, THANKS to everyone that help make this year's WAR ROOM a success and come July 16th at our CABS meeting, the pizza is on GAMA !!! Peter Stein - Jun 28, 2004 6:22 am (#1228 Total: 1300) Currently on the Professional Gamers Tour I also found it interesting that someone earlier commented that the dealers with slow sales were also the ones who were not offering deals . I have it on semi-reliable heresay that dealers were not allowed to sell at other than MSRP unless they were selling their own company's game, ie. GMT could mark down their stuff, somebody else couldn't. And I heard that Decision sold out several of their Euros. . . B. Stock - Jun 28, 2004 11:40 am (#1229 Total: 1300) Thank you CABS for supporting the WW1 gaming sessions I ran -- I had a very good weekend and hope to see you all again soon!! Tom McCorry - Jun 28, 2004 1:45 pm (#1230 Total: 1300) Semi-Reliable Source Being the semi-reliable source, here is the data: I tried to buy a copy of Tigris and Euphrates at a reasonable price for Reiner Kniza to sign at the convention. As I checked around, they were all at list prices. I asked three separate dealers and they all stated that the Origins convention rules required the third-party retailers to sell new (i.e. not used) product at MSRP. This was done supposedly to protect the game manufactures who attended the show from being underpriced by discounters. Manufacturers themselves however could price as they saw fit (e.g. MMP offered 25% off of all products at the show). As for Eurogames, I stopped by Decision Games on Sunday. Rio Grande did their demos in the dealer room at their booth whenever it was open instead of in the Tabletop room. I wanted to do the Maharaja demo but I was nicely told that Rio would not demo any game that was out of stock. When the demo folks check with Decision Games, he was told Maharaja, St. Petersburg, Puerto Rico, and Marco Polo were out of stock. Tom Roy K. Bartoo - Jun 28, 2004 2:07 pm (#1231 Total: 1300) Plush Cthulhu says "You will play a wargame. Fnord." Back from Origins, and catching up on sleep. First of all, a big thanks to the CABS people for all the work that they put into the War Room, and making sure that board wargaming remains viable at Origins. I went to buy a War Room ribbon at about 1 p.m. on Thursday, and they were already sold out. Second, my impressions of the Origins auction. Much, much better than last year's disaster. Marcus King and Larry Zoet did the item descriptions, and while it didn't have the color of the Weekend Warrior auctions, it was sufficient. The auctioneer was better than last year, though he still needs to slow down a bit, and there is little point in him starting his patter at $50 when we know that he is simply going to keep dropping it - waste of time. The room was MUCH better than last year's fiasco. On the negative side, the quantity of stuff, especially wargames, offered was much less than in the heyday (say, about 5 years ago). Much of this is undoubtedly attributable to eBay, and some to doubts over the auction's viability after last year. In past years, there'd still be stacks and stacks of stuff on Sunday morning, and Frank et al would be zooming to get through. This year, the auction was over by 6 p.m. Saturday. My impression was that there were fewer wargames proportionally, a fair amount of family games and role-playing stuff, little in the way of CCGs and almost no minis. At a guesstimate, I'd say about 1/3rd as much stuff was offered as the auction in its heyday. Some of the minimum bids were unreasonable, people expecting eBay prices in a live auction, but this always happens. I spent probably 3-4 hours in the auction Friday and again Saturday, and did not think that there were more 'no sale' lots than usual. Wargames in general were going for a bit more than in the past, possibly because there were fewer on offer, possibly because of the continuing upward spiral of new game prices. The minis and computer stuff did poorly, there were so few lots that they failed to attract the bidders in these specialized items. The auction store was simply unsuccessful, with only a few items, and set where it was hard to see the items or their prices. Plus to get access you needed to collar one of the volunteers during the auction, and they were always busy. I suspect that this was an experiment that will not be repeated. I paid little attention to the 'guest stars of the hobby' portion of the auction, catching only a bit of Rick Loomis and John Hill. When I go to the auction, it is to buy stuff, not to hear designers reminisce about their games - that'd be more appropriate at a seminar, I think. On the other hand, with the small number of lots, there was time available. Dealer's area was good, lots of booths and very little (no?) empty space. The wargames dealers were mostly together, too, which was nice. Oddly, Games Workshop (Warhammer) was not there, perhaps they decided to go to GenCon instead? I leave it to the wargame company representatives to say whether business was good or poor. As for the infamous blackout period, if it occurred I never noticed. When the dealers area closed at 6 p.m. on Saturday, the exodus of people was like a migration, so there were certainly a lot of people in the room. Roy Vance Borries - Jun 28, 2004 2:09 pm (#1232 Total: 1300) I too want to take this opportunity to thanks the CABS guys, particularly Bruce, Bid, and Gary, for being such gracious and energetic hosts of War Room events. If it weren't for these guys I doubt very many of us would be there at Origins. I felt welcome and as a result I am hoping to be able to make the trip again next year. Since this was the 30 year anniversary for Origins I observe that I have not missed more then 3 of these gatherings. It was very nice this year to once again see hobby founder Charles Roberts, as well as many of the other special guests, many of whom I had not seen in years. It was also a pleasure to see that the War College continues and will be there again next year, or so I am told. I'll look forward to it. VvB Martin Sample - Jun 28, 2004 3:01 pm (#1233 Total: 1300) " Kent , meltdown is one of those ugly buzzwords . I prefer to use the term ' undesired fission surplus' " - Montgomery C . Burns I asked three separate dealers and they all stated that the Origins convention rules required the third-party retailers to sell new (i.e. not used) product at MSRP. This was done supposedly to protect the game manufactures who attended the show from being underpriced by discounters. Manufacturers themselves however could price as they saw fit (e.g. MMP offered 25% off of all products at the show). Is this a new policy ? I wonder if it will cut down on third party retailer booths if it is . I don’t know how many of them there are in the first place - margins for them must be tightest of all, unless they deal in OOP stuff. The vast majority of games sold at Origins are probably made by manufacturers with booths there, so the gamer has no reason to buy from a retailer under this structure . Given the choice, I would buy direct from the game company every time under these circumstances. As for being undercut by discounters, has this been a problem AT THE SHOW in the past ? The savvy know that as far as consims and a fair number of Euros go, it is hard to beat the prices of Bunker Hill and Boulder Jim. I don't ever see them having a booth at Origins . Joel A Tamburo - Jun 28, 2004 3:03 pm (#1234 Total: 1300) The Ultimate Joelist. Even bigger fan of the WBC. Come play Medieval there in 2004! On another note, for Maharaja you should have gone to Avalanche Press. They are the US rep for Phalanx, not DG. Elizabeth Fulda - Jun 28, 2004 3:26 pm (#1235 Total: 1300) Sales/Marketing, Avalanche Press As for being undercut by discounters, has this been a problem AT THE SHOW in the past ? Not at recent Origins. A manufacturer can declare exclusivity for their own products if they're in print. On another note, for Maharaja you should have gone to Avalanche Press. They are the US rep for Phalanx, not DG. Uli was called away at the last minute for the Spiel des Jahres ceremony in Berlin, so we did not have exclusivity without him there to sign for it and agreed to sell along with Rio Grande (who shared space with Decision). We were on different sides of the hall so it worked out fine. We had some Maharaja left over at the end of the show, but I'm not sure if they went on to the GenCon warehouse or back to ours. You can call our order line (1-800-564-9008) to find out. Avalanche Liz Bob Titran - Jun 28, 2004 3:48 pm (#1236 Total: 1300) Buffalo, NY I would buy direct from the game company every time under these circumstances. I bet that's the point - they want the game companies to come to the con, not just the discounters. Sounds like it was a great show. Unfortunately, I had to miss it for the first time since Origins moved to Columbus. I really hope to make it back in '05. Bruce Reiff - Jun 28, 2004 3:49 pm (#1237 Total: 1300) Everybody was Kung Fu fighting..... Is this a new policy ? I wonder if it will cut down on third party retailer booths if it is 3rd party retailing is virtually non-existant at Origins with the exception of the CCG types. There are a few there, but not many. The main issue with retailing at Origins is that people know they can go home and buy from the online dealers at a lower cost than at the show in some cases. There are some, and I emphasize some, dealers that do not discount at all in their booths. We had one Cabbie who wrote down every game he wanted from the Decision Games booth, went home and priced it with shipping (and tax?) and printed it out and brought it to them the next day and said this is what I can get these games for from Boulder, but I'd rather buy from you. Can you match this price (it included shipping, but I can't be certain on the tax) and Decision told him no. He said thanks and ordered from Boulder that night. Again, not every company tried for retail, but some simply can't see the forest for the trees IMHO. John Kisner - Jun 28, 2004 4:06 pm (#1238 Total: 1300) How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? The Cabbie could not have seriously expected a special personal discount, could he? There are several layers in the direct mail and retail markets, and each serves its niche and has its own pricing schedules. In very, very few cases can you buy a game, even pre-pub, for as cheaply as Boulder sells them. This was true of Downtown (GMT) and DAK2 (MMP), the last two games I checked. Bruce Reiff - Jun 28, 2004 4:29 pm (#1239 Total: 1300) Everybody was Kung Fu fighting..... The Cabbie could not have seriously expected a special personal discount, could he? There are several layers in the direct mail and retail markets, and each serves its niche and has its own pricing schedules. In very, very few cases can you buy a game, even pre-pub, for as cheaply as Boulder sells them. This was true of Downtown (GMT) and DAK2 (MMP), the last two games I checked. Not at all. He simply looked at several games that he didn't have and would normally buy from Boulder. He priced it and asked if they would match it. That's all. My point is the consumer is fairly savy and knows the market. I sometimes don't think some companies do. Fact of the matter is if they would have even met him halfway he probably would have made the purchase. They stuck with retail... Mark Guttag - Jun 28, 2004 6:37 pm (#1240 Total: 1300) Fairfax, VA Fact of the matter is if they would have even met him halfway he probably would have made the purchase. They stuck with retail... I'm pretty much the same way. I don't expect the companies to match Boulder, but a convention special discount of even 10% makes it a little easier for me to justify to myself buying directl from the dealer as opposed to waiting to get home to order from Boulder. Something else that Decision in particular could also do to attract business is to offer a sheet of errata counters for their other games free with the purchase of a new game. It would be really great to just be able to pick up the errata counters that have been printed for their games as opposed to trying to remember which registration cards I have mailed in to evenutally get the errata counters when they are printed. (As someone who orders many Decision Games direct, I'm also surprised that errata counters aren't sent to me as they are printed, since Decision already had my name as the purchaser of the various games). Mark Kenn Monte - Jun 28, 2004 7:03 pm (#1241 Total: 1300) In action: OCS Sicily, SCS Stalingrad Pocket II and 5x ASL I know MMP had 25%, and it seems that they did well. L2 was ~$10 off per game. But without shipping, that is ~$25 in savings. Considering shipping costs from an online discount seller, and I know that I was happy to give Art my money. (as were all the people that caused him to sell out of the Bitter Woods that he brought) I know someone got Lock n Load and the expansion for 50% off MSRP. John, why is it silly to assume that a retailer would not meet someone in the middle? They get a sale, for more profit then they get selling it to a middle man, and they do not need to lug it home. Sure, it may not be the same discount as an online source, but it is silly to think that MSRP is acceptable. Cabbie or no. Peter Stein - Jun 28, 2004 7:16 pm (#1242 Total: 1300) Currently on the Professional Gamers Tour Being the semi-reliable source, I thught a CABBIE told me. Tom is a much more reliable source Martin Sample - Jun 28, 2004 7:19 pm (#1243 Total: 1300) " Kent , meltdown is one of those ugly buzzwords . I prefer to use the term ' undesired fission surplus' " - Montgomery C . Burns The Cabbie could not have seriously expected a special personal discount, could he? There are several layers in the direct mail and retail markets, and each serves its niche and has its own pricing schedules. True, but in this case he was buying direct from the manufacturer. Even selling at the same price as Boulder, they make more money on the game than if they wholesaled the game to Boulder. I don't expect them to drop prices to Boulder's level, but throw a guy a bone fer christ's sake. As others pointed out, even meeting the guy halfway would have probably cemented the sale , between the goodwill and the difference in shipping. John Kisner - Jun 28, 2004 7:27 pm (#1244 Total: 1300) How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? I'm not saying companies should not offer discounts at their booths. What I said was I can't imagine trying to negotiate a special deal for me alone. I do that at a car lot, but not at Sears or the Decision Games booth. Every bit of goodwill gained by giving Gamer X a good deal because he threatened to buy from Boulder is lost when Gamer Z finds out he paid more (at the same show) because he didn't ask for a special price. Look, it doesn't/didn't hurt the Cabbie to ask. But by tradition at these conventions it's up to the publishers to set their own prices and specials, and I don't imagine that's going to change. What might happen is a natural process by which companies start matching one another, and it becomes hard not to have specials at these shows. Bruce Reiff - Jun 28, 2004 7:31 pm (#1245 Total: 1300) Everybody was Kung Fu fighting..... I'm not saying companies should not offer discounts at their booths. What I said was I can't imagine trying to negotiate a special deal for me alone. I do that at a car lot, but not at Sears or the Decision Games booth. John, I do that all the time. Games, cars, whatever. Of course I'm a Diplomacy player at heart... Gary Christiansen - Jun 28, 2004 7:32 pm (#1246 Total: 1300) You know you still have a sense of humor if you still actually plan for free time. What I said was I can't imagine trying to negotiate a special deal for me alone. There are a few things about our hobby that make it a buyer's market to some extent. The target audience size, the product niches, and the availability of on line discounters all make it more and more possible to start leaning on gaming companies for lower prices. Those companies in turn are squeezed from the other end by production costs. Gaming is a marginal business to be in even in the best of times. That someone would try to cut a deal on costs because he can get better prices elsewhere is not a big surprise (no it was not me, though it's becoming tempting to try). That DG had no flexibility is their business, and that means understanding they may accept losing direct sale business from customers who can work out the numbers and find better deals. Ken Schultz - Jun 28, 2004 8:29 pm (#1247 Total: 1300) Holder of the ConSimWorld record for most people banned from a Blog. Origins AAR We got there Friday afternoon. Played a game of Nappy Wars Friday night with RJ, Johnathon and two people who's names I have forgotten (sorry). I was Austria. On the second round I lost Ferdinand and his entire Army. On the third round I lost Charles and his entire Army. On the fourth round I submitted. I stayed neutral and brought in Turkey and Sweeden as allies. France was holding his own but not running away with things. On turn three Prussia joined the Coalition. On turn 4, with France having 7 VP, I joined the Coalition as well and Prussia promptly switched sides. Much to our surprise France did not run away with the game because Prussia got clobbered and Russia and Austria were running neck and neck in the point count, when Prussia submitted to Russia on exceedingly generous terms and went to play another game. Saturday I played a two player Nappy Wars with another Ken. I was France. I had lousy cards and lousy dice but, fortunately, not at the same time. I was slightly ahead at the end of turn one, behind at the end of turn 2, ahead at the end of turn 3 and, on turn 4, I got both the cards and the luck going my way at the same time and put it away. Saturday afternoon I playtested From the Halls of Montezuma being developed and designed by Mike Welker and Bill Cooper. (Don't ask me which is doing which, they told me twice but I don't remember things like that.) A very interesting game. The Americans have to figure out how to penetrate the Mexican hinterland without being cut off and the Mexicans have to figure out how to stay alive. I've never playtested before so I have no experience against which to guess final product but it definately looks like they'll end up with a very interesting package with constant challenges for both players. Sunday played another 2 games of Nappy Wars. I was France, mulliganed my first hand and drew even less the second time so I lost that game and tried again. Got lucky and wiped out Ferd's Army on the first card. Then did the 'Big' battle for Vienna. Despite having 6 more dice I rolled badly and just eeked out a tie. So battle went to the second round and I routed them, killing almost the entire Austro Russian Army. Caught the remaining Austrians after a failed evasion and killed them too and Conqured Austria first turn. Second turn I kept interrupting and getting cards that got me more cards and did very well indeed. Meanwhile, Colin, the youngest played miniatures Bin Dao Airfield, San Juan Hill (he won), and something else, some computer game, and playtested Memoir 44, the Zombie follow on (When Darkness Falls?) and Battleline? and some other game. Johnathon played two of the Nappy wars and the Bin Doa Airfield and, I think, something else. Had great fun for the whole family and I spent almost the entire time in the War Room having a blast. Kenn Monte - Jun 28, 2004 8:46 pm (#1248 Total: 1300) In action: OCS Sicily, SCS Stalingrad Pocket II and 5x ASL Ken, Memoir 44 just came out. By playtest did you maybe play on the big Overlord map? Zombies 4 just came out. When Darknes Falls is Twilight Creations tile/RPG game. I think it has ~ 5 different packs. Battleline is the card game from Lost Battalion in Maryland who had a very gracious hostess teaching any interested party. sounds like you had a good time. Ken Schultz - Jun 28, 2004 9:11 pm (#1249 Total: 1300) Holder of the ConSimWorld record for most people banned from a Blog. Sorry, not playtest but demo. It's my first half century with my new language. Tony Nardo - Jun 29, 2004 4:28 am (#1250 Total: 1300) Developing and demonstrating _Winds_of_Plunder_ (now on P500 at GMT) JK: "I'm not saying companies should not offer discounts at their booths. What I said was I can't imagine trying to negotiate a special deal for me alone." I can, and frequently have. The notion of "the price is the price is the price, and naught shalt change it" is far from a universal concept. However, to be fair, I've generally done this when I've been prepared to buy an armload of games from the same vendor. I've found that if you're willing to buy a few hundred dollars worth of games from one place, some vendors are quite likely to reward the larger purchase with a 10% or 20% discount. George Sauer III - Jun 29, 2004 4:39 am (#1251 Total: 1300) Columbus Area Boardgaming Society What I said was I can't imagine trying to negotiate a special deal for me alone." What can't you imagine cutting a deal for yourself ??? What does it hurt to ask if I but this game can I get a discount ??? Or If I buy these two can I get the expansion module for 1/2 price ??? Always do myself ... I do it everywhere where I know the person behind the counter is enpowered to do it. Heck, I've asked at WALMART .. (mostly tongue in cheek) ... But at a non chain store where you know the manager has a stake in the store they will sometimes cut a 'special discount' if asked and you are buying somewhat in quantity. George Sauer III - Jun 29, 2004 4:42 am (#1252 Total: 1300) Columbus Area Boardgaming Society Did anyone else see what MAYFAIR did at the con ??? One of the outlets had a stack of MANHATTAN games for $15. Our eagle eyed Bruce R. bought a copy for the club at this price early in the con. However somewhere around day 2 - MAYFAIR went over to the dealer - bought ALL of the copies at $20 a piece and then took them to their booth and slapped a $30 sticker price on them ... Sad ... mlriley - Jun 29, 2004 6:57 am (#1257 Total: 1300) Last 6 games played here in Minneapolis: The Longest Day (AH), To The Far Shore (3W), All Quiet on the Western Front (MiH), Victory in the Pacific (AH), Grant Takes Command (MMP), ASL Starter #1 (MMP) Had a great time at Origins. the War Room was full at 11:30pm Friday night. Great atmosphere with many opportunities to play games. Mike Riley Nathaniel D. Hoam - Jun 29, 2004 7:53 am (#1258 Total: 1300) Women should always wear tight clothes, and men should carry powerful handguns. --Calvin The Cabbie could not have seriously expected a special personal discount, could he? And yet, at a different vendor I tried the same thing (told them how much I could get the games for online) and they happily agreed. Saved me the shipping cost. It all depends on how nice they are willing to be. Jeff Seiken - Jun 29, 2004 8:52 am (#1259 Total: 1300) Contemplating my game collection Avalanche Press was running a special buy two get one free deal at Origins. The problem was that I only wanted (and felt I could afford) one particular title, Great War at Sea in the Mediterranean. Yet I hardly wanted to pay its normal list price of $60. After trying unsuccessfully to convince various other people to go in with me as a partner, I finally approached one of the Avalanche Press employees with a copy of the game in my hands and told him to make me an offer I couldn't refuse. After pondering my request for a few moments, he offered to sell me the game at a 25% discount. Now that's accommodating the customer. Jeff Skip Franklin - Jun 29, 2004 7:15 pm (#1274 Total: 1300) World War II (from start to finish) Origins AAR After driving 14 hours from Oklahoma City to Columbus Gary pulled me to the con. My plan had been dinner and a long nap. I truly don't remember what we did that night. It gets worse. Thursday Gary and I started up on Wacht am Rhein II. The Pre-Dawn and 16AM turns are very long due to the over abundance of German artillery and having to learn the game. Good thing Joe knows how to talk continually. We leave somewhere around 1:30. I'm so zonked that Gary has some concerns about me. Friday Gary, who is running 6th Panzer and I running 5th Panzer and 7th Army push real hard and get two small breakthroughs. The only simularity with WaR and WaRII is the game and unit scale. Artillery is a barrage thing (D10) now that can remove steps and leave a shift during the combat following. Combat is a column shift/die roll modifier thing using D%. Forest and Woods (light forest) is considered covering terrain when moving or retreating with population centers being covering terrain when not moving. To see the enemy for effective barrage you have to get out of your foxhole and meet the enemy. That removes any terrain effects against you. Ouch! Saturday I was able to play some of Vance's upcoming game, Roads to Leningrad. I really like this game. While it is unit activation with chit draw none of the multiple activations before the enemy gets to do anything does not happen. You roll for initiative (except for the first two turns) then take turns drawing from you own cup of Activation Markers (AM). When a an AM is drawn you can take a mobile sequence (player-turn), an assault sequence or a pass. Each has their advantages. The most interesting one is the pass. You can Pass, keeping the drawn AM until next player-turn. Next AM draw you must play the newly drawn AM or the one you kept from last player-turn. If you coordinate properly you might be able to play both! Play is quick, the rules are easy to learn and I had a blast. Gary was the ugly troll from exhaustion this night. Sunday had me and Gary walking around like zombies chatting, picture taking and hand shaking. Joe, Gary and I went to Roadkill for a good burger and fries before Joe his the airport. This was my first Origins. I was overwhelmed by the number of non-wargamers, their shapes and sizes and odd dress. While not quite as big as ConsimWorld Expo, the "Let's Play" attitude was the same. I recommend Origins and the CABS War Room to anybody in 14 hours drive. Mark Novara - Jun 29, 2004 7:38 pm (#1275 Total: 1300) Proud Ex-President (2003-04) of the NGA and Playtester for AW: The Punic Wars And as for me.... Once again I had a great time. My only regret is now that I see the names of so many people who were there, it is unfortunate I didn't read all the name tags to match the names with the faces (and MANY look nothing like the picture they post with their messages here!!! [I was the short guy who looks like my picture who was playing "June 6" Wednesday through Friday night, for those of you who passed by.] Kudos and thanks to the many volunteers and gamers from CABS and the NGA who make Origins worth the 8 hour drive from Rockford, Illinois. A job well done. Mark N. Chet Makuch - Jun 29, 2004 8:42 pm (#1277 Total: 1300) NEPPAGAMES: ETO - by NEPPAGames - A Quality Wargaming Company A HEARTY THANKS TO CABS From all of us at NEPPAGames (namely myself and my partner Pat Merkel), we'd just like to say thanks to CABS for helping to make our first Origins experience a great success. The wonderful people, friendly atmosphere, and great gaming in the War Room made it an experience we'll always remember. Being new to Origins, the assistance and information you gave us to help plan and stage our events was especially helpful. We got in some great gaming, got great feedback on our game, met a whole bunch of terrific people-- we could not have been more pleased with how things worked out! I'm hopeful we'll be able to get out to the Buckeye Game Fest this fall, schedule permitting, so that we can spend some more time with your group and, of course, get some more great gaming in. You're a great bunch! Thank you CABS!!!!!!!!! Sincerely, Chet Makuch NEPPAGames Andy Lewis - Jun 30, 2004 11:29 am (#1280 Total: 1300) Proud Alumnus of Division 1-AA Football Champion Delaware Fighting Blue Hens! Deal Hunters You wouldn't believe all the people at Origins who think they'll get better deals on Sunday because of the theory "You'd rather sell it then carry it home". For GMT, we put our best foot forward. You get the deals we're going to offer starting on Thursday and they stay that way. We had everything but the out of print games (available only because they had been stored in Ohio) discounted to some extent; I think most items were 15% off.