From: bob.g@tinyonline.co.uk (Bob Gingell) Subject: Re: Cry Havoc Medieval Wargame Series Question Dear Alan, Picked up on your question to rec.games.board a week or so ago - although Lutz Pietschker's site is excellent it is not the only website dealing with the medieval skirmish game 'Cry Havoc' (and it seems not to have been added to since 1999). You can also try the yahoo group and the sites of Alex Henderson and Vincent Foin. Lutz's site is based on the English (Standard Games) rules, Alex's on both English and French rules, Vincent's on expansions for the French rules. I believe the French rules to be generally superior - they modified and clarified the rules of the earlier games, and then developed the rules further in 'Croisades' and subsequent games. The boxes for the French games were also much sturdier - the Standard Games boxes were very weak and tended to squash flat, so look out for the condition of used English versions. http://flyhi.de http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cryhavocinternetclub/ http://cryhavocgames.net http://vfoin.free.fr/Index.htm Publication dates and designers, all now out of print - the information that I have is: UK: Standard Games and Publications 1981 Cry Havoc (1st edition in zip-lock bag, 2nd edition in box), Alan E Paull 1982 Siege, Paull 1983 Samurai Blades, Peter O'Toole (development by A Paull) 1984 Scenario Book 1, Paull 1985 Outremer, Paull 1986 Scenario Book 2, Jim Webster & LM Locke (edited by Andy McKay) 1986 Dark Blades, Chris Baylis (development by Andy McKay) 1987 Viking Raiders, David Levell c1989 Dark Blades Expansion Set, Chris Baylis and Andy McKay Note: Mark Boone's games listing has 'Chalk' as the designer of Cry Havoc, but has most of the publication dates wrong; my understanding is that Alan Paull was the only person responsible but Mark may be right on this and know something that I do not. It is possible that I might be a year out on one or two of the dates above, as only Dark Blades and Scenario Book 2 give their dates (while the Standard Games catalogue listed 1981 for Cry Havoc). The date that I am least confident about (DBE) I have identified as an approximate estimate. I might be more certain if I had time to trawl through old records, since most of my dates originally came from magazine reviews and mail-order listings of the time. France: Jeux Rexton then Eurogames 1984 Cry Havoc (translation with minor changes by Duccio Vitale) 1984 Siège (translation with minor changes by D Vitale) 1985 Samouraï (translation of Samurai Blades with minor changes by D Vitale) 1987 Croisades, Vitale (2 tactical maps by Paull) 1987 Siège Extension 1: The Templars Castle, Vitale 1987 Siège Extension 2: The Fortified Medieval Town, Vitale France: Eurogames 1990 Dragon Noir volume 1: The Exile, Vitale (2 maps by Baylis) 1990 Vikings, Yves Fagherazzi & Duccio Vitale 1993 Dragon Noir volume 2: The Challenge, Vitale The new maps for the last 3 games were designed by Jean-Michel Clément I think that Duccio Vitale may also have translated and published Scenario Book 1 in 1984; I have not yet seen this, but it is referred to in the French rulebook for Cry Havoc. Lutz has already identified that 4 of the 6 boxed games were translated from English into German by Das Spiel and Welt der Spiel - it would be strange if Outremer was not also translated into German, as that came out before Dark Blades. Standard Games produced one supplementary map (The Forest), and sold the Templars Castle and the Fortified Medieval Town as map sets; only The Forest map was actually used in their published scenarios. Eurogames also had three extra maps (The Open Field, The Ford, The Coast #2). Planned games on the Norman Invasion of England (by Standard Games), and 2 more volumes for Dragon Noir plus an extension for Vikings (The Fortified Harbour), were never completed. Standard Games did, however, produce a spaceship combat game (Starship Captain, in 1983) that used 'Deep space' hex-maps of identical size to the Cry Havoc maps. There are many additional rules and scenarios; most were published in French games magazines in the 80s and 90s, notably in Le Journal de Stratège, Casus Belli, Vae Victis, and Claymore. Newer material is now being put on the internet, and there are cyberboard versions. I have translated all the French magazine scenarios and rules, and the later French boxed games: all of these are on Alex's website. I hope this helps. Bob Gingell Alan Kaiser wrote in message news:<3E5669AA.3000008@uchsc.edu>... > Thanks for the reply. Also, thanks for keeping such a great website on > the Cry Havoc series. For anyone who ever wanted to know anything about > any game in this series, your site is THE place to visit. Your > rewrite/recompilation of the rules should be a standard download for > anyone with any of these games. A fine piece of work! > > Alan Kaiser > > Lutz Pietschker wrote: > > >Alan Kaiser wrote: > > > >>Does anyone know any specifics of the Cry Havoc series of games put out > >>by Standard Games. I am specifically interested in the year of their > >>publication and the designer. > >> > >Standard Games did not tell much in the rules or on the box. > > > >>There is a Samurai Blades (part of the Cry > >>Havoc series) entry at BoardGameGeek that list the year as being 1983 > >>and the designer as A. Paull. > >> > >Actually, it gives Peter O'Toole as designer and Alan Paull as > >developer. My copy does not give a date. > > > >>Did this guy design the whole series? What > >>were the publications years for the other games in the series; Siege, > >>Outremer, Viking Raiders? I have Cry Havoc, Siege and Outremer but I > >>can't find any of this info on the box or in any of the material in the box. > >> > >Viking Raiders gives David Levell as designer, Siege Alan E. Paull. > >"Lichtbringer", the German edition of "Dark Blades" gives 1986 as the > >publishing date of "Dark Blades" and "Lichtbringer", and Chris Baylis as > >original designer, development Andy McKay. > > > >None of the boxes and booklets I have gives a copyright or publishing > >date. The German translation of "CH" was copyrighted June 1984, that of > >"Siege" Oct. 1984, that of "Samurai Blades" 1985 (all by Das Spiel, > >Hamburg, who were pretty fast in translating). > > From: "Bob" Subject: Standard Games (was Re: Cry Havoc Medieval Wargame Series Question) Answers to Mav's questions below are based on the dates of advertisements and reviews in game magazines of the time. Bob "The Maverick" wrote in message news:3E7525C6.7030608@volcano.net... > Bob wrote: > > > A correction to the information posted on dates and designers for the Cry > > Havoc series of medieval man-to-man combat. > > > Thanks for collecting this info! A few requests for clarification, if > you know... > > > 1981 Cry Havoc (1st edition in zip-lock bag, 2nd edition in box), designer > > unknown > > Were the 1st and 2nd edition both released in 1981? Are there any > component differences other than the packaging? > My guess is that the second edition would have come out in mid 1982 when the price was raised from £9.45 to £9.95, most likely after the first print run had sold out. There was no difference in rules (so far as I can tell), but there was one minor change to the components. "The Crossroads" map in the 1st edition had artwork on the back of one side (side 6) to act as a front cover display in the ziplock bag, while for the boxed version the artwork was transferred to the box lid and the map back was clear. The French version of the rules for 'Cry Havoc' used the improved missile results system from 'Siege', but I have not seen any indication that the English version of 'Cry Havoc' was ever updated in this way. The identification of Gary Chalk as the designer seems to have originated from a review of the game by Peter Hatton in Fire & Movement 27 (May-June 1982). Other reviews at that time did not say who was the designer, and no information was given with the game. Alan Paull worked as a freelance designer for Standard Games and Publications from 1982 to 1985, so his statement that Gary was the man behind the magnificent counter art leaves us with a hole where the designer's name should go. Does anyone out there definitely know the designer's name? > > > Alan Paull also designed City of Sorcerors and Thunderin' Guns > > Do you also have the year of publication for these games? > > the Mav > 'City of Sorcerors' appeared in 1982 as did 'Starship Captain' (designer unknown) and "The Forest" supplementary map for 'Cry Havoc'. 'Speed and Steel' (designed by Peter O'Toole, who later designed 'Samurai Blades'), 'Thunde-rin Guns' (correct title!), and 'Siege' appeared in 1983. Standard Games also produced some 25mm 'card warriors' and rpg game aids for Dungeons and Dragons. The games after the first edition of 'Cry Havoc' were in large flat (easily crushed) boxes. 'Starship Captain' was originally more expensive than the others as it came with 9 "Deep Space" game boards, black with white hex lines, that were the same size as the Cry Havoc maps. From: "Bob Gingell" Subject: Cry Havoc and Standard Games Dear Alan, I see that you have put my post to rec.games.board onto the Grognards site. I am happy for this to have been done, but since that post I have exchanged emails with Alan Paull, checked some (but not yet all) of my old game magazines for reviews and advertisements, and also checked some mail order listings, and have answered some additional questions. As a result I posted to r.g.b. some corrections and additions to the information on the games published by Standard Games & Publications. I have re-formated and combined those later posts below, with a little extra information, for your use. I will let you know of any new information that I discover to fill the remaining gaps in designers' names, etc. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A correction to the information posted on dates and designers for the Cry Havoc series of medieval man-to-man combat. Following an exchange of emails with Alan Paull, who designed Siege, the list of the games published in English by Standard Games and Publications should now read as below. If anyone does know who designed Cry Havoc and Outremer I would be very pleased to receive that information. I am still estimating the date of the Dark Blades Expansion Set. The Cry Havoc series of man-to-man skirmish boardgames: 1981 Cry Havoc (1st edition in zip-lock bag, 2nd edition in box): designer unknown (artwork by Gary Chalk) 1982 "The Forest": supplementary map for Cry Havoc 1983 Siege: Alan E Paull (illustration by Peter Dennis) 1984 Samurai Blades: Peter O'Toole (development by Alan Paull, illustration by Peter Dennis) 1984 Scenario Book 1: Alan Paull 1985 Outremer: designer unknown 1986 Scenario Book 2: Jim Webster & LM Locke (edited by Andy McKay) 1986 Dark Blades: Chris Baylis (development by Andy McKay) 1987 Viking Raiders: David Levell c1989 Dark Blades Expansion Set: Chris Baylis and Andy McKay Notes: Alan Paull also worked on a major revision of the system for the Crusades period which was never published. He and the company parted ways and Outremer was then designed by someone else. His main criticism of the original system relates to the lack of good morale rules, which his revision would have dealt with. Alan greatly enjoyed the design process for Siege and told me that the design for the castle was loosely based on Skenfrith Castle (near Monmouth in the Welsh Marches). Apparently Siege was advertised before he even started to design it, so the nine months of research, design and playtesting was very intensive. My guess is that the second edition of 'Cry Havoc' would have come out in mid 1982 when the price was raised from £9.45 to £9.95, most likely after the first print run had sold out. There was no difference in rules (so far as I can tell), but there was one minor change to the components. "The Crossroads" map in the 1st edition had artwork on the back of one side (side 6) to act as a front cover display in the ziplock bag, while for the boxed version the artwork was transferred to the box lid and the map back was clear. The French version of the rules for 'Cry Havoc' used the improved missile results system from 'Siege', but I have not seen any indication that the English version of 'Cry Havoc' was ever updated in this way. The identification of Gary Chalk as the designer in some game indexes seems to have originated from a review of the game by Peter Hatton in Fire & Movement 27 (May-June 1982). Other reviews at that time did not say who was the designer, and no information was given with the game. Alan Paull worked as a freelance designer for Standard Games and Publications from 1982 to 1985, so his statement that Gary was the man behind the magnificent counter art leaves us with a hole where the designer's name should go. Does anyone out there definitely know the designer's name? Standard Games & Publications did produce four other board games in 1982-1983, all designed by freelance designers. After that they concentrated on the Cry Havoc series, and on Fantasy Role Playing Games (including dungeon floor plans and 'Felt-hex') plus their own FRPG Dragonroar (the one with giant hedgehogs and killer penguins). In 1988 they were running a commercial PBM game called 'Dark Blades' which (not surprisingly) was set in the lands of the boardgame Dark Blades. Boardgames: 1982 Starship Captain: designer unknown 1982 City of Sorcerors: Alan Paull 1983 Speed and Steel: Peter O'Toole 1983 Thunde-rin Guns: Alan Paull (illustrations by Peter Dennis) FRPG boxed game and accessories: 1983 Dungeon Accessory Pack I 1983 Dungeon Accessory Pack II 1985 Dragonroar: Peter O'Toole (development by Alan Paull, artwork by Peter Dennis) c1986 The Zhevezh Gauntlet (scenario for Dragonroar) Standard Games also produced nine sheets of 25mm 'card warriors' in 1981 and 1982. All the games after the first edition of 'Cry Havoc' were in large flat (easily crushed) boxes, although the RPG game boxes were half the size of the others. 'Starship Captain' was originally more expensive than the others as it came with 9 "Deep Space" game boards, black with white hex lines, that were the same size and quality as the Cry Havoc maps. Final note: "Thunde-rin Guns" really was spelt that way!