john Halvonik - 07:33pm Feb 21, 1999 PST (#414 of 476)
"All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs
upon it."

I think some of you are playing the game wrong and I don't think there
is a major imbalance. MIke, I think raised the question about multiple
Reaction Fire. Richard confused his terms, volko I think is on the right
track but needs clarification.

Here goes: we all agree the archers are pretty deadly even at 3 hex
range. Mike is concerned about multiple Reaction Fires. However, missile
units can only reaction fire in their ZOC, which extends only ONE HEX in
front of the unit. It's not as if their a whole killing field in front
of each archer when you attack them, you only have to worry about that
when you get right in front of the archer. There is at most only 2
reaction fires and only if two attackers are right in front of the
missile unit.

Attackers will have to take a hit, but even though you're disorgnanized,
you will get the same odds on the attack you are about to make becuse
the CRT looks at.defender status not the attacker.

Berg confused REaction Fire with Return fire. Return fire is used
against other missile shooters. There is a multiple return fire problem
here which is easily cleard by volkos rule change, only allow one RETURN
fire per missile unit under missile attack.

Richard said he thought he was worried about blitzing tactics but such
multiple reaction fire is not really the problem. and it's not really
blitzign that you have to do.

Obscure rule #2. Not only will this attacker be able to reach the enemy;
if he is up against enemy infantry (infantry have no ZOC!) he can
execute an advantageous flank or rear attack on the next turn. He is not
limited when he starts in front of an inf. unit (because they have no
ZOC). Note that even a single inf. unit can execute very advantageous
flank or rear attack by wheeling out of the front of enemy infantry.
Even cavalry can make a charge that start from the front of enemy
infantry.

Richard H. Berg - 12:05am Feb 22, 1999 PST (#415 of 476)

John is correct; I was derelict in my reading skills, taking Reaction
for Return.

Ya see what happens when you try to keep rules to 4 pages?? GRINGOS runs
6 pages . . .but the editorial razor has still been active. One thing a
DTPer sort of has to assume, is that his clientele is fairly
knowledgeable in the hobby. Enables one to skip instructions on how to
unfold the map . . . et al.

Have to check on my printer today, to see if his new color macine has
arrived. In te meantime, Mike Lemick sent samples of the GRINGOS
counters; look nice. And the maps are far more detailed . . .

RHB

john Halvonik - 10:55am Feb 22, 1999 PST (#418 of 476)
"All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs
upon it."

Yes, Berg did mention the blitzing effect but this technique is still
viable in the KfH system. In fact you have to sort of use this somwhat
gamey technique if you are to have any luck against the longbows.

REACTION FIRE. Is used by missile shooters when attackers manage to get
to the TWO HEXES directly in their front (Here's where an illustration
would have helped, I think some players feel this means at a range of
TWO HEXES. But it really means, the 2 hexes at a range of one. I.e.
directly in the front).

One can effectively screen off the deadly archers by attacking the
archers, taking thzt frist hit, becoming disorganized but remaining
latched on. If you time it just right, you may be able to activate some
units right behind these guys they can attack the flanks of these same
archers w/o taking any reaction fire. Essentially a pick and roll. Even
if you don't time it right, the archers still have to kill the units
latched on before they can hit anyone else so you may have to sacrifice
e.g. a cheap archer to protect a heavy infantry that would otherwise be
in the firing field for PHASING FIRE.

Also remember the 3 rules that limit missile shooters. they are limited
by LOS when any units, including friendly, are in front of them.
Attackers eventually will move forward to hurt you, but they will then
screen off their own missile shooters. Rule 2. Archers can't fire uphill
so be careful when one posts up on a higher elevation say 3 hexes from
your own missile shooters-he can shoot you but you can't return fire.

Rule 3 is that missile shooters effectively have a field of fire since
they only shoot out of the "front two hexes." (this applies to PHASING
FIRE, which is firing missiles when it's your turn and RETURN FIRE) This
means sometimes you can lurk only two hexes away but still be outside
the field of fire (say on the flank of an enemy line). Now it is true
that missile shooters can change facing at the start of the turn and
then PHASE FIRE away at you but be careful to see that they are not
being screened by e.g. their own infantry or perhaps one of your men, on
the flank. if you can post up a cavalry unit 2 or 3 hexes away using
this technique you can then charge them on your next turn.

RETURN FIRE. Is used when it's not your turn. I.e. non phasing missile
shooters return fire of phasing missile shooters. They do have a rules
advantage when being shot at by more than one missile shooter. The rule
fix is to only allow one RETURN FIRE per unit, even it is being shot at
by three missile guys. This means that converging fields of fire (e.g. 2
or 3 archers on 1) are effective in this game.

Again keep in mind tha fine print, non phasing units being fired at (by
PHASING FIRE), CANNOT change facing, so if you can set up missile
shooters outside the field of fire, e.g. on the flank, you can get good
shots in w/o being fired back at. So check out the facing of enemy
missile shooters, they may not be in postion to return fire.

Richard. Rules question. Is that last sentence correct? You can only
change facing when it's your turn, the non phasing player cannot change
facing, correct? I think that's the rule but some ambiguity exists since
the rules say "changing facing is not movement" One of those sentences
that begs for interpretation.

I am amazed that the system works cleanly and is fun to play with only a
few easy to assimilate, rules. While KfH is not a tactical history
lesson, it is still a lot of fun to use the above combined arms
techniques to make the various arms work together.

Richard H. Berg - 03:22am Feb 23, 1999 PST (#420 of 476)

"Richard. Rules question. Is that last sentence correct? You can only
change facing when it's your turn, the non phasing player cannot change
facing, correct?"

Yes. For several reasons . . .none of wich occur to me at this our. But
they do fall under "seemed like a good idea at the time." See below.

"I am amazed that the system works cleanly and is fun to play with only
a few easy to assimilate, rules. While KfH is not a tactical history
lesson, it is still a lot of fun to use the above combined arms
techniques to make the various arms work together."

KfH was not intended as a tactical history lesson, nor was it designed
as the ultimate Bosworth game (on the other hand, as it is the only
Bosworth game, it may, by default, be ultimate). It was designed, sort
of like BLUE AND GRAY, or the old SPI Nappy battles, to provide a nice
fun play with enough history so you know where you are, and who's trying
to do what to whom. One tries to be as "accurate" as possible, even
within those strictures . . .but detail falls quickly by the wayside.
Then again, it only takes 1-2 hours to play.

My printer informed me that their color printer is still a few weeks
off; very bad news. His old one is working, but it sort of "pales out"
the colors. I may just try a run of the GRINGOS maps to see if it'll
suffice. Ireally do not want to settle (rather than select, for all you
old Robert Hall fans). Then again, many of you have sent checks . . .

RHB

john Halvonik - 10:12am Feb 23, 1999 PST (#425 of 476)
"All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs
upon it."

***IMPORTANT RULES QUESTION, IMPORTANT RULES QUESTION, IMPORTANT RULES
QUESTION ***

Richard, in KfH, I have an infantry (pike?) melee attacking 2 units: a
disorganzied, infantry with melee rating of +2 (not a good melee rating)
AND a longbow, not disorganized, with melee rating of 0 (pretty good
rating).

It does not appear that I should roll the die twice for each defender,
since the system accounts for making attacks against more than one unit,
however

Which table to I roll on: disorganized or not disorgaized?

Which DRM modifier? +2 or 0? Or an average of both?

if I use the disorganized table, and roll defender elminated, does that
mean they are both eliminated? Even though the longbow was never
disorganized?

This is not that unusual of a situation although it did not come up in
my first full run through. NEvertheless there are some serious issues
here.

john Halvonik - 10:21am Feb 23, 1999 PST (#426 of 476)
"All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs
upon it."

As for my previous comments, I did not mean to impugn the game. I was
impressed that a) you've got a smooth working relationship of several
differemt arms and many different issues, for example cavalry needs at
least a couple of turns to get up close prior to making a charge while
missile shooters begin to rain arrows down on them throughout these
several turns; and b) even though not a true tactical history lesson it
does force you to use the infantry, archers, etc. in combined ways that
make it enjoyable and very intersting.

Richard H. Berg - 04:19am Feb 24, 1999 PST (#428 of 476)

"Don't they have any competitors? Copy Max? Kinkos?

"..., surely your existing printer is not the only game in town? "

Most assuredly not . . but they are, far and away, the least expensive
(Mad Ave word for "cheapist"). By far. We have a brand new Kinkos, which
I am going to look at, but they are not a "discount" store . . more a
full-service bunch of folks. The printer (more "copier", as nothing is
actusally printed in BSO games, other than the rules) I use uses copying
as a Loss Leader. And they know my stuff (takes about 3,4 visits to get
a printer to understand what you want).

Anyway, it is disturbing . . so I have decided to provide a free battle
for LOS GRINGOS for those who buy before I can run it (which includes
all of you who already did): El Brazito. Small stuff, works on an 8x11
map (at same scale as the other games). Early battle in Doniphan's
expedition . . .comes free for all who "...buy before the printer falls
. . ."

John;s question: "Richard, in KfH, I have an infantry (pike?) melee
attacking 2 units: a disorganzied, infantry with melee rating of +2 (not
a good melee rating) AND a longbow, not disorganized, with melee rating
of 0 (pretty good rating). It does not appear that I should roll the die
twice for each defender, since the system accounts for making attacks
against more than one unit, however..."

As the rules state, you may attack more than one unit . . .owever,
also,] as the rules state, you roll for each separate defender, using
whatever applies to that one on one. Dierolls are separate . . but apply
simultaneuously. (This is what you get for keeping the rules short.) . .
. all as noted by Chris H.

RHB

john Halvonik - 12:45pm Feb 25, 1999 PST (#432 of 476)
"All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs
upon it."

Yes I finally figured out that rule, the very last para. under Melee.

I guess I was thinking that it could not be a separate die roll, because
the unit differential DRM suggests that multiple defenders are possible
for a single Die roll. Sort of non intuitive.

john Halvonik - 04:06pm Feb 26, 1999 PST (#434 of 476)
"All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs
upon it."

KfH Rules ambiguity questions:

The cavalry rules say that you cannot charge units that are four hexes
distant; only those three or less. The example given states positively
that you cannot charge more than 2 hexes. So I take it that even if an
enemy unit is 3 hexes away you cannot use a 3 hex move to charge him. It
is of some significance since you can often get a better flank attack by
being able to do that. So I take it the example given is the rule: You
can't charge more than 2 hexes.

Also: The counter charge rule. It says the defender can change facing
once per phasing period (or some such term) in order to counter charge.
But the defender is not in a phasing period it is the attacker who is in
the phasing period. Semantic mistake I suppose. But more to the pt, can
a defender counter charge against a flank attack? Rules prohibit counter
charge against a rear attack so I assume yes? or can he not change
facing at all if it's not his turn? Also can a defender counter charge
against 2 attackers? Not prohibited but rather counter intuitive if
permitted.

Can a unit attack an individual not stacked w/ anyone?

Have played two full run throughs and Henry has won both. Some
modifications: I dispensed with all but two of the gunpowder units for
Richard (am not sure this really matters) and have modified Vict
conditions (first one to lose 20 units, or his leader loses). Also
instead of a 10 sided die have gone to coin flips. Instead of a 30%
chance of hitting with an archer at 3 hexes this now goes down to 25% (2
heads); a 10% probability now becomes 12% (toss 3 heads). Seems to work
well.

I like coin flipping since it's hard to feel you're getting screwed by
the dice. I mean it doesn't seem possible that a penny is more likely to
come up tails, whereas with dice one often wonders.

Modified the vict. conditions

Richard H. Berg - 04:11am Feb 27, 1999 PST (#437 of 476)

" ...can a defender counter charge against a flank attack? "

Yes, if he can turn that one vertex to "face" the incoming horsies. And
Volko's explansation of charge distant is point on . . .

Good news! New printer has arrived. Firstly, this means all back orders
of KHand DH (for full meaning, re-read entire topic) go out today (even
the one to Yugolsavia). Mike Lemick says he's send counters for proof -
even as we speak - so LOS GRINGOS should be moving off fairly soon . .
.hopefuly before I go to San Fransisco in two weeks (to say the least).

Best thing about the "El Brazito" freebie in GRINGOS is is is possibly
the shortest game in the hobby. Then again, how many games camn boast of
an appearance by those famous "La Clede Rangers"??

RHB

john Halvonik - 10:57am Mar 1, 1999 PST (#439 of 476)
"All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs
upon it."

That leaves the following quetion unanswered: Can you counter charge
against two charging horse units in order to eliminate the DRM or is
this a moot pt. since at least one of the attacker will still be
charging and hence the DRM would still apply.

Richard H. Berg - 08:44am Mar 2, 1999 PST (#440 of 476)

"Can you counter charge against two charging horse units in order to
eliminate the DRM or is this a moot pt. since at least one of the
attacker will still be charging and hence the DRM would still apply. "

All depends on the facing of the defending, counter-charging unit. If it
allows him to c-c both attackers, yes, it will cancel the charge bonus.

LOS GRINGOS ready to roll . . .simply awaiting Mike Lemick's counters. I
will be sending Lord Kranz, Viscount of Serverland, some visuals so you
can indulge in a little taste of that "eye candy".

RHB